Does anybody ever NOT use a metronome?

[jonfinn]

One of the reasons I like the Harmony Central forums is that most of the time, the discsussions are informative. sensitive and interesting. I don't see a lot of discussions here that devolve in to pissing contests about "who's right."

A metronome (to me) is like working with a nautilus machine instead of free weights. Free weights rely more on brute strength where a nualitus machine encourages a specific technique (to focus on a specific muscle group). Each has it's pros/cons.

I like using a metronome to practice specific things. I don't need it or rely on as a crutch. But I see it as useful for practice. And frankly I don't care what people think about my playing when I practicing. When I'm PRACTICING, I'm working on things I CAN'T do (by definition, that means I never sound good while practicing!!!).

My point is that every moment we spend arguing is a moment taken away from practicing that we'll never get back.

"click.... click....click....click..." ok I have to go now!

[Ericjake]

Are any of you able to play slightly ahead or after the beat at will?

Some genres require this.

Today most sound engineers require that recordings be done to a click (even for drummers).

[corporealJigsor]

Nope.

You might want to reread your posts above, if you arent saying that i've got no idea what you are saying

Besides, how practical is it to practise with a top class drummer, we all know they grow on trees

(i much prefer playing along with a drumtrack to a metronome though)

[Virgman]

I practice scales to a metronome.

[stymye]

it's indespensable for hardcore practicing and gaging your progress...it's an important tool if your serious about getting your technique or speed up.

I can program whatever timing I want into mine and really challenge myself.. for a measly $20.. why not have one?!

[Knottyhed]

If you feel that you need a metronome to impart your timing, so be it. But it will limit your musicianship. For instance, do you know *any* classical players who have a beat behind them when they play? They *must* have this internalized timing. They may practice at some point with a metronome but in the end, the performance is, analogously, without nets - no metronomes.

Find me just one (serious) classical musician that doesn't practice regularly with a metronome, at any level. I'd be surprised, because I've never met one.

You seem to think that if you practice regularly with a metronome you'll have no sense of timing when you turn the metronome off, the truth is the complete opposite.

Using a metronome isn't about safety nets it is about keeping yourself honest - am I staying in time? Am I playing that passage correctly or am I slowing it down when it becomes difficult?

A drum machine is just a more complicated metronome and confers the same benefits; personally I'd rather keep it as simple as possible - programming a drum beat seems like an unneccessary distraction. Each to their own I suppose.

[Kuroyume]

True and false.

Some people can't keep time for themselves and removing the source of timing unleashes a complete disaster in their timing. I've seen it personally and up front. Obviously, people can hone their timing by practicing with a metronome or analogous source.

But, you want to guarantee your timing, play with one while practicing and then without while practicing as well to see that you aren't only getting your timing from an external stimulus.

Find me just one (serious) classical musician that doesn't practice regularly with a metronome, at any level. I'd be surprised, because I've never met one.

Hi.

I only use a metronome when practicing classical guitar when the piece is very complicated rhythmically. Otherwise, a song with strict 8 or 16 notes per measure, for instance, doesn't faze me in the least without a metronome. I have one in my head (and my foot).

Maybe it is just me. I have impecible timing. I'm one of those people who, for instance, cooks in a microwave set at 6:00 minutes and, without even thinking about it, knows when its ready within maybe 10 or 20 seconds (sometimes even closer to 1 or 2 seconds!). My mind just clicks, 'it's about ready', and away I go. Lucky me.

Part of this is that I've been playing for 27 years and have had drummers on and off for many of my early years while developing. This alleviated the need for a metronome all of the time. Basically, I was living with a VERY good drummer for about four years - even learned a bit of drumming from him despite not being very good at that.

[driverhasabomb]

Maybe it is just me. I have impecible timing. I'm one of those people who, for instance, cooks in a microwave set at 6:00 minutes and, without even thinking about it, knows when its ready within maybe 10 or 20 seconds (sometimes even closer to 1 or 2 seconds!). My mind just clicks, 'it's about ready', and away I go. Lucky me.

LOL...

[Knottyhed]

I only use a metronome when practicing classical guitar when the piece is very complicated rhythmically.

 

 

Well that's kind of what I'm on about... in other words, if the piece is challenging and difficult you work on it with a metronome? Last I checked the best way to improve is to work on things you find challenging and difficult...

 

Amazing skills with the microwave by the way, my use of the metronome usually means I have to wait for the 'ding', otherwise I've no idea how long my food has been in there.

[jonfinn]

When I use a metronome for practicing these days, it's about checking in with my sense of time. Even though it's really good, it can still be better.

At my worst, I'm playing right in line with the click all the time. At my best, I have complete control over whether to "bury" the click (playing so far in sync that the click becomes inaudible), or playing in front of the beat, or laying behind it.

I like working with it to achieve the effect of being relaxed, yet precise.

[Music Calgary]

OK I listened to what was said here and practiced with a metronome everyday for about a week -- I am revising my opinion.

 

I think they are worthwhile for the purpose Jon Finn states, to maintain relaxed precision and check up on your timing. As he wrote, it can always be better no matter how solid it is.

 

I will start recommending metronomes to students.

 

I think if we were playing like the guys in the old days did, i.e. back-to-back 6-nighters it would be a lot less relevant, but hey...

 

I stand by my statement that playing over real drums is the only way to develop great musical timing -- whether that be records or real drummers. And for most students that should be the focus for the majority of their daily practice time spent working on timing. Grooving with a really good drummer/band is not much like playing over a metronome -- set a metronome to a Jack DeJohnette jam and you'll see, it won't lock in.

 

Anyhow I've revised my position on metronomes.

 

I am still against the blind overuse of metronomes such as I see in advanced classical students who come to me distraught that they have a complete lack of ability to groove even to basic beats though. I have a couple accomplished classical piano teachers learning guitar here and these folks have real trouble playing/feeling a lot of fairly basic beats just because they've developed such a strict sense of timing.

 

On a related note I heard the stiffest reggae beat in human history this week. You could starch your work shirt with this beat.

[corporealJigsor]

OK I listened to what was said here and practiced with a metronome everyday for about a week -- I am revising my opinion. I think they are worthwhile for the purpose Jon Finn states, to maintain relaxed precision and check up on your timing. As he wrote, it can always be better no matter how solid it is. I will start recommending metronomes to students. I think if we were playing like the guys in the old days did, i.e. back-to-back 6-nighters it would be a lot less relevant, but hey... I stand by my statement that playing over real drums is the only way to develop great musical timing -- whether that be records or real drummers. And for most students that should be the focus for the majority of their daily practice time spent working on timing. Grooving with a really good drummer/band is not much like playing over a metronome -- set a metronome to a Jack DeJohnette jam and you'll see, it won't lock in. Anyhow I've revised my position on metronomes. I am still against the blind overuse of metronomes such as I see in advanced classical students who come to me distraught that they have a complete lack of ability to groove even to basic beats though. I have a couple accomplished classical piano teachers learning guitar here and these folks have real trouble playing/feeling a lot of fairly basic beats just because they've developed such a strict sense of timing. On a related note I heard the stiffest reggae beat in human history this week. You could starch your work shirt with this beat.

The key to not overusing them is not to constantly play on the beep and only on the beep IMO

[jonfinn]

I stand by my statement that playing over real drums is the only way to develop great musical timing -- whether that be records or real drummers.

 

 

From what I've seen, classical musicians tend to think very differently that people who play jazz, rock, or other modern improv-based styles.

 

It's true that many classical players have a very "stiff" feel and approach. Great classical players have a whole other thing going.

 

Andres Segovia had a fascinating take on musical timing. He used to practice performing his solo pieces to a metronome until he could play it smoothly at his desired tempo, keeping track of the piece's length.

 

He would then practice performing the same piece without the metronome, deliberately varying the tempo for musical expression, but maintaining the piece's overall length. If the piece took exactly 4 minutes with a metronome set at a certain tempo, it would still be exactly 4 minutes (no more, no less) when he varied the tempo. If he sped up during some sections, he'd have to slow down in other parts to compensate.

 

I tried that a few times, and I couldn't even get close! Yikes!

[Music Calgary]

It's true that many classical players have a very "stiff" feel and approach. Great classical players have a whole other thing going. Andres Segovia had a fascinating take on musical timing. He used to practice performing his solo pieces to a metronome until he could play it smoothly at his desired tempo, keeping track of the piece's length. He would then practice performing the same piece without the metronome, deliberately varying the tempo for musical expression, but maintaining the piece's overall length. If the piece took exactly 4 minutes with a metronome set at a certain tempo, it would still be exactly 4 minutes (no more, no less) when he varied the tempo. If he sped up during some sections, he'd have to slow down in other parts to compensate. I tried that a few times, and I couldn't even get close! Yikes!

 

Nice control but to me this is not necessarily useful musical timing. It's a nifty parlor trick. We are playing music for humans... Not only are our fans incapable of identifying that sort of timing but, even if they could, they simply would not care.

 

Classical audiences may be the exception. But even then I'd bet cash most listeners can't tell the difference.

 

Fun trying it though.

 

The type of timing I work on, and seek to foster in students, is "connective" timing. The ability to connect instantly with anything you hear. To fall in and stay in even before you've had a chance to fully parse what you're playing. The ability to play in time *meaningfully* with other people for other people over any song.

 

What is great timing? Bob Marley would have looked a bloody fool on paper vis-a-vis Segovia. Every single time I've seen Stevie Wonder play he treated time *very loosely* and would start/end phrases slightly out of time here and there.

 

Anyhow I'm not arguing, great post Jon. Food for thought!

[Music Calgary]

Here's an example which is illustrative of what I mean.

 

This guy has accurate timing but I'm glad I wasn't there:

 

The timing here is ridiculous but man I wish I was there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SeLISb0xyg

 

So... Music is a human experience and all things are relative. Accuracy on a metronome isn't music. The people you are playing for aren't using metronomes when they assess your music.

 

So many examples of deeply important music the people love that is timed very loosely:

 

Holds to a metronome:

 

Deviates from a metronome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFTH5EAf2XI

 

Bottom line is that a musician needs to be able to play in time in a way which is meaningful to the listener. Players who focus too much on metronome playing have as much of a need to learn how to do that as musicians who can't play along to a metronome in many cases. That's all I'm saying.

 

If you listen closely with a metronome-critical ear you can hear small deviations in all sorts of incredible performances:

 

Anyhow enough said. Was a fun topic though. So now I'm using a metronome for bass practice daily, I'm going to do an experiment and see how it changes my playing over the coming weeks.

[jonfinn]

Nice control but to me this is not necessarily useful musical timing. It's a nifty parlor trick. We are playing music for humans... Not only are our fans incapable of identifying that sort of timing but, even if they could, they simply would not care. Classical audiences may be the exception. But even then I'd bet cash most listeners can't tell the difference.

 

 

I brought the example up to demonstrate there are many ways to approach musical timing (not to diminish the point of view of others, nor to disagree, but to add a different view). And of course, you're not insinuating that Segovia meant it as a parlor trick right?

 

My guess is that if he did it, he very likely had very good reasons.

 

:-)

[Music Calgary]

And of course, you're not insinuating that Segovia meant it as a parlor trick right?

No.

My point is that it doesn't matter what Segovia meant vis-a-vis the audience.

I'm also not arguing with you.

[Virgman]

I enjoyed that video of Johnny Winter. Never saw that one.

 

You should read Segovia's autobiography. Very interesting.

[joel3000]

When I practice with the metronome I practice playing on and around the beat, center, pocket and ahead.

 

When I play with the metronome I find my improv is more confident.

[Music Calgary]

 

You should read Segovia's autobiography. Very interesting.

 

 

Have done. Neat guy. He was alive until the mid 80's, got lots of chances to read his magazine columns and see him perform on video. Bloody awesome guitarist, great educator and all around shiny ambassador for the sport.

 

 

[Kuroyume]

Have done. Neat guy. He was alive until the mid 80's, got lots of chances to read his magazine columns and see him perform on video. Bloody awesome guitarist, great educator and all around shiny ambassador for the sport.

 

 

Not even 'bloody awesome'. He is astoundingly amazing - a true artist on the guitar with exquisitely beautiful phrasing, emotive playing, and technical superiority. Williams is amazing as well but a mere puppet to the sheer mastering of the classical guitar that Segovia represents.

 

To extend the idea being represented by the mention of Segovia, I'm not in any way trying to discourage people from using a metronome. Just that it should not be the end-all, be-all of your timing skills. Note that I follow Segovia - play with a metronome/drummer/etc. and then without. It is as paramount to developing timing skills as extending other exercises into skills personally and without 'the net'. Once you remove the training wheels, you are exposed to monitoring and grading your performance without backup - just like in the real world. You are now asked to hone your own perception of your playing in a way that represents what you will experience in recording and live situations. A time-tested way to do this (when you have difficulty both playing and gaging) is to record your playing and critique it (and possibly have others do the same).

 

As others have noted, once you remove the strictest regimes of timing, you can then play with alterations that enhance your real-time emotive playing and allow you to make a song your own. Changing the variables in situ may not always work favorably, but as time progresses you become more aware of how to anticipate favorable timing changes.

 

I guess that what I'm saying is that learning timing is similar to learning the complexities of music itself. You learn basic major scales and chords - you learn basic timing. In both cases you reinforce these basics. You then move up to minor scales then melodic minors then harmonic minors then modes and so on. In regards to timing, you move from basic strict timing to dotted beats then altered accents on the off-beat then slightly off timings then variable timings and so on. Yes, in some cases, you encounter timings of such complexity that you wish to recreate that you must bound yourself to some systematic methodology as a metronome but by this time you are either prepared to use it as a prerequisite or you will spend long hours struggling whether using a metronome or not. Just like playing complex solos requires a step-wise advance of continuous practice, so does timing. Experience and internalization are key to advancement.

[jonfinn]

Not even 'bloody awesome'. He is astoundingly amazing - a true artist on the guitar with exquisitely beautiful phrasing, emotive playing, and technical superiority. Williams is amazing as well but a mere puppet to the sheer mastering of the classical guitar that Segovia represents. To extend the idea being represented by the mention of Segovia, I'm not in any way trying to discourage people from using a metronome. Just that it should not be the end-all, be-all of your timing skills. Note that I follow Segovia - play with a metronome/drummer/etc. and then without. It is as paramount to developing timing skills as extending other exercises into skills personally and without 'the net'. Once you remove the training wheels, you are exposed to monitoring and grading your performance without backup - just like in the real world. You are now asked to hone your own perception of your playing in a way that represents what you will experience in recording and live situations. A time-tested way to do this (when you have difficulty both playing and gaging) is to record your playing and critique it (and possibly have others do the same).

 

 

This is a great way to explain this! Thanks for taking the time to post!

 

I saw Segovia Live at Symphony Hall in Boston back in 1978. I sat in the 3rd balcony, all the way to the back of the hall. Segovia was the size of a postage stamp. Unamplified and hundreds of feet away, I could hear every nuance as if he were next to me.

 

Even though I'm an electric guitarist who plays mostly rock and jazz, Segovia has been an important role model because of the care and detail he put in to his pursuit of excellence.

 

If Segovia told me that bathing in cranberry juice would help my guitar playing, I'm headed for the grocery store to place a rather (ahem) "memorable" order!