Does anybody ever NOT use a metronome?

[Virgman]

[Poparad]

Now I don't understand what you are on about!! How is the ability to keep time with the beat/pulse of the music not anything to do with having good musical timing? It seems like a prerequisite to me! Either you are not carefully reading what I am saying or just being deliberately obtuse? I just don't understand how you can't concede that point, I really don't.

I'm a bit baffled by his reasoning as well. Playing in time is just a basic, fundamental musical skill. Players who have great time who haven't regularly practiced to a metronome could play along to one if they tried (that's the whole point of having good time, is to be able to sync up with something). The may have arrived at their level of playing without having worked extensively with a metronome, but it's not like metronome time functions in some completely different space/time continuum than what the rest of music uses.

[corporealJigsor]

What does that have to do with good musical timing? What does that have to do with good musical timing? What does that have to do with good musical timing? Honestly I have no clue what you're on about... Absolutely not. If you claim to have predicted "somewhat" all the great music you 've ever heard just before you heard it then I call pure BS on that. It's a ridiculous thought. Unless of course you've never listened to Zappa, Weather Report, Tower of Power, etc. How do you predict a Tower of Power album?

You're right, being able to keep an even speed and being able to play on the beat have absolutely nothing to do with timing, and are deeply unmusical

[Knottyhed]

+

[fmw]

I do use a click track if I record something without monitoring a rhythm track. Otherwise, no, I don't use metronomes. Perhaps the fact that I was a drummer for many years helps with that. I don't know.

There is no reason that a metronome should be distracting, however. If you play with others, you need to deal with the group rhythm. If you want to use a metronome, then use one. It will all fall together with a little practice.

[Music Calgary]

You're right, being able to keep an even speed and being able to play on the beat have absolutely nothing to do with timing, and are deeply unmusical

 

That's certainly not related to anything I said. You and Knottyhed are just being internet drama queens...

 

Bottom line is:

 

1. Lots and lots and lots of the world's finest musicians didn't use metronomes to develop their perfect timing.

 

2. There's not a single top player I know of who didn't develop their perfect timing working with drummers.

 

3. You guys playing to a click track may sound great to you and make your mommas beam with pride -- but it's not music I'm looking for...

 

4. If you want to sound boring metronomes and click tracks rule. If you want to sound interesting you have absolutely no option but to play with great drummers -- and keep your ears and mind open. Argue with that all you want, the fact remains the same.

 

5. When you do play with other musicians don't be all pushy and trying to impose your views. Shutup and play yer guitar.

[violists]

the metronome is an accessory. music is flow basis of clockwork

[jeremy_green]

So, I'm not disparaging the use of a metronome, but if you've been playing, ahem, 25 years, and still use one, maybe you should go into gardening. Point - I'm damned good at blues timing and I haven't used a metronome in nearly 25 years. My experienced, professional guitar teacher keeps telling me that I'm the best student he's ever had and wonders why I'm not out playing in a band. Think on that.

 

 

??? No - now you are disparaging the people who use them.

 

This is a VERY bizarre statement. You may be the greatest player in the world but your timing can never be too good. Anything you do to improve your sense of "pocket" and groove is worth doing. Most of these guys dont "need" to use a metronome, we do because it refines something that is already there.

 

I will never understand why any musician closes any potential door to possible improvement.

 

My question stands: What is the difference between playing with a metronome pulse and playing with a steady drummer. They are one and the same. How is a metronome any more robotic? Other than the obvious tonal difference.

 

Drummers swear by them ... and they are the ones we follow.

[Music Calgary]

 

What is the difference between playing with a metronome pulse and playing with a steady drummer.

 

 

Go listen to some Dennis Chambers, if you still have that same question after that then it's simply a case of you rejecting the answer...

[Knottyhed]

5. When you do play with other musicians don't be all pushy and trying to impose your views. Shutup and play yer guitar.

Sure, next time I play with other musicians I'll suggest everyone keeps their own time. That way we can all play the same song at completely different tempo's. It'll be far more creative and musical :facepalm:

Are you smoking something?

Seriously, nobody has said it isn't good to play with a drummer, just the opposite. That isn't the argument and never has been (except maybe in your head?). Have I at any point said "metronomes and click tracks are the only way to keep time, never play with a live drummer"? You're deliberately trying to change what I and others have said into something ludicous to cover the fact that you've painted yourself into a corner with your argument and can't get out of it without ruining your shoes.

The first part of the argument is that a good sense of time is a pre-req for playing in time and that playing in time is a pre-req for sounding good and being able to play with other musicians. As far as I can tell this is an undeniable truth.

The second part of the argument is that a metronome is a valuable tool for developing timing... it isn't the only tool, but it's a good one. Just because a musician developed timing without using one doesn't mean they couldn't keep time with one. In fact just the opposite.

[Music Calgary]

This is the most ironic statement I have ever read.

 

Really? How dramatic!

 

Check out some Tom Wolfe, Bonfire of The Vanities is a great read that's much more entertaining and ironic.

[Knottyhed]

Quote: You're right, being able to keep an even speed and being able to play on the beat have absolutely nothing to do with timing, and are deeply unmusical That's certainly not related to anything I said.

 

 

I think you have said that by the way. Maybe you didn't mean to... but when I try to make the point that you have to be able to keep time and play with the beat ask me what it has to do with good musical timing and you claimed that Gennation's band must have been deeply unmusical because they were playing to a click track.

 

This would suggest that (a) you think keeping good time and playing to the beat has nothing to do with timing (b) you think keeping a steady tempo is deeply unmusical.

 

Sounds pretty ludicrous to me, but you've said it, even if you don't really believe it.

[Music Calgary]

 

I think you have said that by the way. Maybe you didn't mean to...

 

 

Nope.

[Knottyhed]

Really? How dramatic! Check out some Tom Wolfe, Bonfire of The Vanities is a great read that's much more entertaining and ironic.

OK, you're right, it was wasn't the most ironic statement I've ever read, just the most ironic statement I've read today. I was being a bit dramatic there, which in itself is somewhat ironic.

[Knottyhed]

Nope.

 

 

Great, so remind me again what your argument is RE metronomes not being valuable tools for developing good timing and the ability to keep time with the beat not being a pre-req to being able to play with other musicians? Because I'd hate to think I've worn out my typing fingers for nothing... :poke:

[Kuroyume]

??? No - now you are disparaging the people who use them. This is a VERY bizarre statement. You may be the greatest player in the world but your timing can never be too good. Anything you do to improve your sense of "pocket" and groove is worth doing. Most of these guys dont "need" to use a metronome, we do because it refines something that is already there. I will never understand why any musician closes any potential door to possible improvement. My question stands: What is the difference between playing with a metronome pulse and playing with a steady drummer. They are one and the same. How is a metronome any more robotic? Other than the obvious tonal difference. Drummers swear by them ... and they are the ones we follow.

But if you must continuously use a metronome then where is the internalized beat to play by. After many years, if you really need a metronome for everything then you have no internal timing and maybe music isn't where you should be (not you specifically but general you). For particularly difficult passages, a metronome can be useful. But I'd rather have the drumming behind me otherwise.

In other words, you should be able to play along with a metronome or a drummer. But how about with neither? If you can't do that, you're in deep doodoo as a musician.

[Knottyhed]

But if you must continuously use a metronome then where is the internalized beat to play by. After many years, if you really need a metronome for everything then you have no internal timing and maybe music isn't where you should be (not you specifically but general you). For particularly difficult passages, a metronome can be useful. But I'd rather have the drumming behind me otherwise. In other words, you should be able to play along with a metronome or a drummer. But how about with neither? If you can't do that, you're in deep doodoo as a musician.

I don't see how practicing with an 'honest' external source of tempo can do anything but enhance your sense of internal timing. Always playing with a drummer who randomly speeds up and slows down the beat (good ones don't), is more likely to be detrimental to your sense of internal time.

[gennation]

That's not musical. Don't take that personally. It would have to be predictable at some point to listen to though -- especially from night to night... Poor waitresses.

Check these clips out...(remember, this IS during the 80's) These are both live some night out of 100's and 100's of gigs over our time together, I have no idea if they are even from the same gig, IOW these aren't necessarily the best recording...only what we have recorded.

Wait - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/Wait.mp3 (this is live, on the job, if you listen hard enough in the intro parts you can even hear the click in monitors)
Alone - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/Alone.mp3 (again live on the job, and if you listen hard enough you can hear the click in the monitors)

Also, listen to the modifications I did on my soundboard to allow me to bump the solo's up at the soundboard fader by using a footswitch and then bringing them back in the mix I also wired up a footswitch to turn on and off analog effects at the boards effect send.

IOW, I also ran sound from stage but with the modifications (and precise line levels) I could replace the soundman too...needless to say, with the bass, horns, keys, lights all MIDI and modifications to the board...I was able to remove a lot of people and make a lot of money instead, but still travel and succeed as a straight up RnR band.

I don't see ANYWAY playing on time hurt this band at all. The difference is that the whole band is on EVERY beat, off beat, anticipation, off-set feels, LIKE GLUE...TOGETHER. Many times it make things more epic than just jamming or playing together, because it was damn tight.

Plus with programming MIDI lights to each show we had the light show of 10 hands doing the job!

That setup also drew A LOT of attention, one time would be the infamous Ratt story where we were blowing Bobby Blozter's mind (as he said) with this set up and they way it came off.

[jeremy_green]

But if you must continuously use a metronome then where is the internalized beat to play by. After many years, if you really need a metronome for everything then you have no internal timing and maybe music isn't where you should be (not you specifically but general you). For particularly difficult passages, a metronome can be useful. But I'd rather have the drumming behind me otherwise. In other words, you should be able to play along with a metronome or a drummer. But how about with neither? If you can't do that, you're in deep doodoo as a musician.

I dont think anyone ever said "continually use a metronome". All the posts I have read here have referred to it as a tool. More specifically a training tool to work on technique.

I would play with a drummer every night of the week if I could... but not one with unsteady meter. Because as Knotty said playing with unsteady meter can mess with your own internal clock. Obviously I have to settle to working with an actually human only a couple times a week.

You must have a pretty patient drummer to play time for you endlessly while you work on odd number groupings or speed exercises. Playing more complex passages requires practice ... let me rephrase that - WORK. Most mortals dont come out of a box able to hear and execute polyrhythmic ideas, for this type of skill development a metronome is invaluable.

i cant believe I actually have to argue this. I always thought a metronome was a given.

[jeremy_green]

Go listen to some Dennis Chambers, if you still have that same question after that then it's simply a case of you rejecting the answer...

 

 

This is absolute nonsense - more name dropping to validate a very weak argument. Having good meter is crucial - period. The greats know when they are slipping time. It is because there sense of pocket is so broad and second nature they can play around with it. Or in very rare cases their chops are so highly developed that a variance in tempo is accepted because otherwise they are just so damned good.

 

If you were one of these immortals you wouldnt have time to be sitting here arguing semantics with all of us. You'd be performing.

 

Shhh What's that sound??

 

click, click, click - its calling you! Waiting for you to "play" with its hypnotic robotic time. Like the foot of John Bonham.

 

A click is what you make it - "play with" it or STAY with it. Just like you do with a drummer.

[Virgman]

Check these clips out...(remember, this IS during the 80's) These are both live some night out of 100's and 100's of gigs over our time together, I have no idea if they are even from the same gig, IOW these aren't necessarily the best recording...only what we have recorded. Wait - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/Wait.mp3 (this is live, on the job, if you listen hard enough in the intro parts you can even hear the click in monitors) Alone - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/Alone.mp3 (again live on the job, and if you listen hard enough you can hear the click in the monitors)

You are shameless in your self-promotion.

[gennation]

You are shameless in your self-promotion.

Consistent too

[Kuroyume]

click - its calling you! Waiting for you to "play" with its hypnotic robotic time. Like the foot of John Bonham. A click is what you make it - "play with" it or STAY with it. Just like you do with a drummer.

 

Did someone say John Bonham.

 

Read some comments that appear to suggest that they have been playing for years and use a metronome all the time.

 

Since I don't have a drummer these days (but I did have a damned good one in the past), I practice in two ways (to covers since I'm not a song writer really): with the song and without it. The former can be the song or a MIDI but playing 'solo' otherwise is to reinforce the timing and 'memorize' the song from what is in my head.

 

And I also 'sing' rhythms in my head and solo over them. As you get better with this, you can have fun with, say, 5/4 and 7/4 beats, which I will admit are difficult to master - if not just due to the different ways they can be subdivided but to the retention of the beats in more ambiguous situations (phrasing over it).

 

To be fair, doing these odd time signatures requires a beat if you want to get complex over them. In this case though, I'd rather have a 'smart' metronome on a computer accenting the beats rather than a simple 'tick tick tick' (or worse in these situations: 'TICK tick tick tick'). Accents are crucial to timing - as I learned in six-beat blues (and listening to Reggae). They are the subdivisions of the drone.

[Ferdinandstrat]

I never used a metronome in my life, yet I was capable to play the Crossroads version of the 5th Caprice quite well.

[Kuroyume]

I will concede that some need the physical reinforcement and check to maintain their timing while others internalize it and can reproduce it as needed.

 

This is similar to 'perfect pitch'. Some people need to learn and memorize and master it while others almost naturally attain it. I'm not someone with 'perfect pitch' - I'm a consummate 'relative pitch' person who can pick out pitch by reference and experience but couldn't tell you if something is off by 5 or 10 cents by ear along.

 

If you feel that you need a metronome to impart your timing, so be it. But it will limit your musicianship. For instance, do you know *any* classical players who have a beat behind them when they play? They *must* have this internalized timing. They may practice at some point with a metronome but in the end, the performance is, analogously, without nets - no metronomes.

 

The metronome is a tool for achieving better timing and that is it. Practice is practice but playing live is playing live. If you can't bridge that gap you are *DOOMED*!!! So, use the metronome sparingly to check your timing, but play without it more to guarantee your timing is there internally.

 

That's my take on this.