Does anybody ever NOT use a metronome?

[Knottyhed]

No offense but "using a metronome properly" is absolutely no way to develop great skills at syncopating -- you ***NEED*** to play with drummers. And not your wife either, someone with skills. Someone who will feed you new ideas on a daily basis. Period. I know of no interesting guitarists who didn't cut their teeth with real drummers.

 

True, that's not just a drummer thing, you'll never be an interesting musician if you don't play with other musicians *period*! unfortunately I can't just turn a live drummer on every time I feel like practicing, so I use a metronome

 

Using a metronome is a way to practice syncopation, and timing in all its forms... next you'll be telling me you can't write down interesting music with syncopation?!

 

Besides, a metronome reduces the beat to it's most basic component making it easier to know if you're in time with the beat or out of time when practicing and making it the 'go to' tool when you need to practice and isolate something specific.

 

The problem is that some people buy a metronome and use it purely for developing speed, and as such play nothing but 16th notes at ludicrous tempo's. The best way to learn how to use a metronome properly is to spend learn to read music IMO, even you don't get any good at it (I'm not!) you'll gain an understanding of how to properly practice using a metronome. There's whole books devoted to reading rythms, including syncopation.

[yem]

 

I hardly ever play with a metronome, I hate the annoying beep noise. Beep Beep Beep *smashes metronome*

 

 

Not all metronomes sound the same.

 

Here' s a good one for your computer that is very flexible (in time sigs and sounds): http://www.pinkandaint.com/weirdmet.shtml

[Music Calgary]

 

next you'll be telling me you can't write down interesting music with syncopation?!

 

 

I have no clue what you're talking about. Honestly.

[Jim85IROC]

I've got a boss metronome/tuner that I've tried to use, but I just can't get the hang of it. I suppose that one of these days I should try to start getting used to it for when I'm practicing licks, but usually I just practice getting my fingers to do what's necessary, and once my fingers understand what to do, I play along with the song to get my timing.

[gennation]

For about 2-3 years I worked with a band that MIDI'ed the bass, horns, Keys, light show, etc...and we did it successfully as a full blown RnR show, not a lounge act.

 

EVERYTHING we played was to a click track. Our drummer was amazing...he had the click in his headphones along with his vocal monitor...he could jam and stay locked into that thing. We all got REALLY good in the timing arena as we were doing 5-7 nighters the whole time.

 

We also had the click in our monitors for songs that either guitar, keys, or singing had to start. It made me a machine, I don't play like a machine but my timing is solid...and above everything else...I'm able to recognize when it's not and perfect it.

 

Metronomes and timing DO NOT have to be boring or mechanical...they are just another reference in the music.

[Music Calgary]

EVERYTHING we played was to a click track.

 

That's not musical. Don't take that personally. It would have to be predictable at some point to listen to though -- especially from night to night... Poor waitresses.

[argument_clinic]

so its agreed: not everyone uses one, but metronomes are pretty rad

 

loopers are also cool for working on time

[stratitude]

Wow, I'm surprised at the debate over metronomes, but I really shouldn't be, because I myself am internally conflicted about them. I always thought I was the only one (guess not!)

 

The main thing that throws me off about metronomes is the robotic, non-musical nature of them. The incessant beeping or the clicking just drives me mad, is it not truly the stuff that nightmares are made of? I can imagine waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat hearing the chilling, terrifying sound of a metronome, signaling my descent out of creative world of music, and into the mechanical, robotic world of the machine!

 

But that's just my qualm (or, maybe, paranoia?) about metronomes. There is huge value in playing in time! At the most basic level, rhythm is one half of music. Getting a good sense of rhythm, however, requires a lot more than merely being subjected to the robotic, mechanical "beat" produced by a metronome with the hopes that it will be ingrained into your mind and soul purely by repetition. You have to really know whats going on with rhythms - break them down, count them out, and find a system that works for you. Once you really have the rhythm internalized, be it by "one-and-uh's" or "Da-Ta-ka's" or whatever system works for you, lose the counting and work on the feel. Find a drummer or some home made backing tracks or anything that will let you play with rhythm without forcing you to commit yourself to an insane asylum, and play along. Record yourself playing songs you like and see how your rhythm is doing - are you coming in too fast, lagging behind, and if so are you doing it on purpose? Are you syncing to the rhythm you hear? If you can't figure the rhythm of a song you are working on, then slow it down. Another way is to just mute out the strings and rake em, finding the beat. You will need to develop these rhythm skills at some point in your musical career, might as well do them sooner rather than later, don'tcha think?

 

To what extent you will need your "absolute" or "internal" rhythm developed will be dependent on the type of music you play. By that I mean being able to play in time when there's nothing to play along with. Some will always have the steady hand of a drummer in the background, others may enter into the world of solo acoustic- or electric-guitar and need to play the rhythm on their own. Like all things, it just takes practice. Regardless, when you are not constrained by a machine, you will find that there is a sort of organic leeway in the music where you don't have to be perfect - you just have to be close enough.

 

Sorry for the rambling. Here's the "for dummies" version: Are metronomes an essential part of music and developing as a player? Not at all. Is having a good sense of rhythm essential to a player? Absolutely!

[Poparad]

A lot of people here are mentioned that "such and such famous player" never used a metronome, so it's not that important, but I'd like to point out that a lot of people use exactly the same line of reasoning in regards to learning theory or learning to read, which I'm sure few here would disagree are valuable skills to have.

 

Just because a handful of famous guitarists don't use metronomes doesn't mean that there isn't benefit to be had from practicing with one. It's a tool that serves a purpose like anything else, and should be viewed as such.

[Poparad]

Oh, and just to counter the examples of famous guitarists who don't use a metronome:

 

TN_LUYgxVs4

 

 

Not robotic or mechanical in the slightest, and plenty of examples of playing with the time.

[JazzyShredder]

Haha! Come to think of it I never really imagined people debating over the use of metronomes. Because it is, for me, the holy grail of rhythm & timing. It has made my playing a MILLION times less sloppy, improved my speed, accuracy, timing and rhythm, and has (recently) enabled me to the Al Di Meola-style random rhythmic division thing with my playing.

[JazzyShredder]

Also, I think someone has mentioned this already, but: if you really think your timing and sense of rhythm is rad, record some of the stuff you play and then give it a listen. Chances are it won't sound as rad as you would've imagined it to be.

[argument_clinic]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but when guitarring in a band situation its important to listen to the drummer. Hopefully the drummer can keep time.

[JazzyShredder]

^ You can remove that "hopefully" from your statement if YOUR personal sense of timing is sound enough. Believe it or not, we had to replace the drummer in our band because all of us, except the drummer, are heavy users of the metronome, and on certain occasions we caught our drummer losing his time.

[jeremy_green]

One of the nice parts of sites like these is that essentially nobody knows each other. One of the not so nice parts about sites like these is that nobody knows each other.

 

There are clearly so many different skill sets represented and tastes that it makes a topic even as simple as using a metronome convoluted sometimes. A pro level jazz player has different insights as to what is important to work on than a basement 14 year old shredder who plays only one kind of music. So I dont expect everybody to agree on anything.

 

All you "anti-metronome" guys keep referring to the metronome as annoying and robotic. I just dont really understand where you are coming from. All western music (essentially all music) has a steady pulse through all or most of a piece. Typically it (the pulse) doesnt speed up or slow down. So would you define this steady pulse as robotic?

 

A metronome provides a lock tight beat to lock into. If you are off - you know, if you are on - you know. Your notes are not mixed in with high-hat beats or other drum related bits. It is you and a singular beat - nowhere to hide.

 

Backing tracks, loopers and the like are awesome and fun. I use them both all the time, but more to work on phrasing and melodic concepts. When it comes to working on technique, metronomes are the most transparent. When I am really working on my technical flaws I want to hear the details.

 

Feel has essentially nothing to do with it during this phase of practice.

 

I ask again: What is it that makes a metronome difficult to work with for some of you? Not being an ass I just dont see the difference and it confuses me.

[JazzyShredder]

Here's something for those who believe that following the drummer is a valid option all the time:

 

 

Also, the drum solo (which comes after the bass solo) on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7iB3zQIVRI

 

PLEASE WATCH THESE CLIPS...TO THE VERY END! EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT YOUR FAVOURITE GENRE OF MUSIC! The second one is an awesome song too, atleast IMO. FWIW, I have the whole DVD of their performance.

[JazzyShredder]

And finally (sorry for this long series of posts) if you can't maintain your timing with the metronome, then your timing sucks overall. Accept it. The metronome IS a drummer, albeit the most accurate one in existence. If it puts you off time, then that means you have no, or a low level, sense of time. Sad, but true. Accept the fact for what it is.

[Silverfox]

Not all metronomes sound the same. Here' s a good one for your computer that is very flexible (in time sigs and sounds): http://www.pinkandaint.com/weirdmet.shtml

 

Cool, thanks bro

[Kuroyume]

 

No offense but "using a metronome properly" is absolutely no way to develop great skills at syncopating -- you ***NEED*** to play with drummers. And not your wife either, someone with skills. Someone who will feed you new ideas on a daily basis. Period. I know of no interesting guitarists who didn't cut their teeth with real drummers.

 

 

Yes. And, yes. A good drummer teaches not only lock-step 'one-two-three-four' but SYNCOPATION way beyond it!!!! Being able to play notes in time with a metronome is good for beginners (as I noted, you'll note) but to gain timing, feel, and tightness, you must go beyond the metronome. It is training wheels on a bike. Do you still ride your bike with training wheels? Huh?

 

So, I'm not disparaging the use of a metronome, but if you've been playing, ahem, 25 years, and still use one, maybe you should go into gardening. Point - I'm damned good at blues timing and I haven't used a metronome in nearly 25 years. My experienced, professional guitar teacher keeps telling me that I'm the best student he's ever had and wonders why I'm not out playing in a band. Think on that.

[Music Calgary]

And finally (sorry for this long series of posts) if you can't maintain your timing with the metronome, then your timing sucks overall.

 

Fine. What the heck does that have to do with developing musical timing and/or people who have great timing?

 

Accept it. The metronome IS a drummer

 

Ummm, no. It isn't. The metronome is a metronome. That said I'll take one of whatever you've been smoking -- must be some awesome shit.

 

albeit the most accurate one in existence.

 

Exactly, that's why crowds jam into venues at $100 each to hear metronomes while Jack DeJohnette can't even find a pick-up gig. Just last week Terry Bozzio lost an audition to a Hohner metronome. I see a lot of kids with metronomes on their shirts too these days. So I see your point... Mechanical accuracy is everything when it comes to making great music.

 

If it puts you off time, then that means you have no, or a low level, sense of time. Sad, but true. Accept the fact for what it is.

 

I accept nothing you've said as fact. Sad? You be the judge. True? Definitely...

[Knottyhed]

That's not musical. Don't take that personally. It would have to be predictable at some point to listen to though -- especially from night to night... Poor waitresses.

 

Tell you what I think is crap; bands that constantly speed up during songs. It's very common and it doesn't sound good. There's nothing non-musical about being able to play accurately to a beat, just the opposite in fact. Sycopation is the ability to play around with that beat, to emphasise unexpected parts of the beat, not actually play 'on' the click and *still* stay in time with the music. If you're just ignoring the beat you're going to sound like an idiot. I'm getting the impression that some people think syncopation is the ability to constantly change the tempo and keep up with the ever changing, unpredictable tempo set up by your incompetant drummer...

 

I know 2 guys that have made a living as session musicians and they tell me you'll get your ass kicked out any proffessional band, orchestra or recording studio if you can't keep a steady tempo. The reasons for this seem so obvious as to not even need discussion surely!

 

The best way to keep to a steady tempo is practice to a metronome. In a live situation sometimes the drummer speeds up and slows down, it is important to have the ability to go with it, because if you just keep doing what you're doing the whole band will sound bad. That's just a matter of listening to whole band and not just existing in your own bubble.

 

All listenable music is predictable to a point - it has hooks, riffs, tempo's, a verse/chorus type structure etc. want to hear some unpredictable music - check out Derek Bailey on YouTube. You might like it, but I sure as hell don't.

[Music Calgary]

Tell you what I think is crap; bands that constantly speed up during songs. It's very common and it doesn't sound good.

 

What does that have to do with good musical timing?

 

There's nothing non-musical about being able to play accurately to a beat

 

What does that have to do with good musical timing?

 

If you're just ignoring the beat you're going to sound like an idiot.

 

What does that have to do with good musical timing?

 

Honestly I have no clue what you're on about...

 

All listenable music is predictable to a point

 

Absolutely not. If you claim to have predicted "somewhat" all the great music you 've ever heard just before you heard it then I call pure BS on that. It's a ridiculous thought. Unless of course you've never listened to Zappa, Weather Report, Tower of Power, etc. How do you predict a Tower of Power album?

[Knottyhed]

Absolutely not. If you claim to have predicted "somewhat" all the great music you 've ever heard just before you heard it then I call pure BS on that. It's a ridiculous thought. Unless of course you've never listened to Zappa, Weather Report, Tower of Power, etc. How do you predict a Tower of Power album?

 

You're not seriously trying to tell me Zappa's music is completely devoid of structure, rythm and tempo? That he never repeats a rythm, a riff, a musical motif? That he never plays 2 phrases that sound similar and build off each other? An element of predicability is the difference between music and random noise.

 

I don't know any Tower of Power/Weather Report songs, but if they truly are devoid of any of the elements above then I no doubt wouldn't like them and nor would most people (kind of like Derek Bailey). If it is simply complicated, ingenious music then maybe I would like it, but it will still have an element of predictability in terms of the melody, beat and structure - even if it throws in the odd surprise here and there.

[Knottyhed]

Just to simplify my points as much as possible:

 

1.) Being able to stay in time is fundamental to having 'good musical timing', you can have great note choices and creative phrasing, but if isn't in time with the groove you're playing over, what you're playing will not make sense and will not sound good to most listeners.

 

2.) A metronome is a convenient and useful tool that can be used more creatively than most people realise (i.e. not just a tool to develop speed). Using a metronome is one way of developing a good sense of timing. Playing with a live band is another. Playing over a backing track is another. The metronome is the most portable and convenient method of these 3 for most people and is better than a backing track if you want to isolate something.

 

3.) A slightly unrelated point - If music is *entirely* lacking in form or structure it probably isn't very listenable. I'm not talking about music surprising you by changing tempo, or key, or time signature, I'm talking about music that is completely lacking in predictability - the only form of music I know like that is like that is atonal jazz/'free improvisation' played by the likes of Derek Bailey. That's is about as close as you can get to music with rules, structure or predicability - the only problem is that most people agree it sounds crap.

[gennation]

That's not musical. Don't take that personally. It would have to be predictable at some point to listen to though -- especially from night to night... Poor waitresses.

 

It was at the heart of one of the tightest bands I was ever in, and I've been a bunch of REALLY tight, well rehearsed, seasoned, bands.

 

You can see videos of the band at youtube if you search "mike dodge". There are ones from the 80's with the little blond female singer. The band was definitely spot on and it was a full fledged RnR show. All the GnR, Nugent, RObert Plant, etc...is all MIDI'ed so the keyboard who comp chords and do a lot of the double/harmony guitar lines with me.