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Theory of chord progressions


Vats

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Posted

Can someone explain the theory of non-diatonic chord progressions (for example, G D A E) or point me to a link where I can understand patterns such as these, and more complicated ones? I keep coming across a lot of such progressions that seem to be outside the scope of basic diatonic theory.

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Posted

 

Can someone explain the theory of non-diatonic chord progressions (for example, G D A E) or point me to a link where I can understand patterns such as these, and more complicated ones? I keep coming across a lot of such progressions that seem to be outside the scope of basic diatonic theory.

 

 

I'll never forget reading the last few sentences of a harmony book I bought years ago:

 

"As you can plainly see, just about any harmonic movement can be justified in some way. Therefore, any chord can lead to any other chord."

 

I threw the book away.

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Posted

I'll never forget reading the last few sentences of a harmony book I bought years ago:


"As you can plainly see, just about any harmonic movement can be justified in some way. Therefore, any chord can lead to any other chord."


I threw the book away.

 

It sounds like politics. :thu:

 

I have two cents to offer as to how to approach this in a somewhat useful way.

 

Key of C chords below:

 

C - Dm - Em - F - G7 - Am - Bdim

R -- T ---- R -- T - T --- R ---- T

 

R = Resolution C, Em, and Am are resolution chords.

T = Tension Dm, F, G7, and Bdim are tension chords.

 

R can substitute for R in key.

 

T for T

 

From this we can see the oft used sub in jazz, the iim - V7, Dm - G7. Both tension chords.

 

How about the vim natural minor (Am) and I chord © relationship? Both resolution chords.

 

Going from key of C to key of G? Am is the vim chord in C and the iim chord in G. In G the Am chord subs for D7 (iim-V7). Therefore we might sub the vim chord in C which is Am with D7 or D major.

 

And on and on. Does it always sound good?. No. Sometimes it does and sometimes it's too far out.

 

This leads into modulation or changing keys. An indepth topic itself.

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Posted

In essence, in the example you posted, we're borrowing a chord from G for use in the key of C. If this is "allowed", it's hard to disagree with the statement in the book jonfinn was talking about; it might be possible to substitute the hell out of a regular diatonic progression and arrive at any sequence you could think of (whether it sounds good or not is another matter, as you said).

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Posted

 

In essence, in the example you posted, we're borrowing a chord from G for use in the key of C. If this is "allowed", it's hard to disagree with the statement in the book jonfinn was talking about; it might be possible to substitute the hell out of a regular diatonic progression and arrive at any sequence you could think of (whether it sounds good or not is another matter, as you said).

 

 

There's a process at work in the method I gave. Your not just pulling chords out of hats.

 

But if it sounds good, it is good. There's nobody telling you what you can and cannot do.

 

You can do whatever you like.

 

I just made this one up. Didn't follow any "rules". I think it sounds cool. Do you?

 

G - Eb - B - D

 

I watched a Demi Lovato (Disney) video my kid likes a few days ago. Not a diatonic progression at all. The kids love it.

 

Soloing over these wacky progressions might be a challenge.

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Posted

I understood the method you were talking about; what I meant was that you can probably carry on substituting and arrive all kinds of "weird" progressions.

 

I don't have my guitar with me right now but that progression looks interesting. Will have a go at it when I get home.

Posted

Just about any chord progression that steps out of a key can be explained in one of the following ways:

 

1) Modal borrowing: When in C major, borrowing chords from C minor, and vice versa. For example, this common pop progression: C, F, Fm, G. Fm is the iv chord in C minor. Also, it's a good use of chromatic voice leading (A in F to Ab in Fm to G in C major). Radiohead's "Creep" does this in the key of G, with yet another out-of-key chord: G, B, C, Cm. The B chord fits into the third category below.

 

2) Cycle of fourths/fifths. Many progressions, including the G, D, A, E one you mentioned, are just moving about through the cycle. The most common form is the secondary dominant, which just steps back one chord in the cycle. For example, D7 -> G7 -> C in the key of C. D7 is the previous chord in the cycle from G. G is the V chord in C, and D7 is G's V chord. You can create really long cycles of V of V of V of V of etc... The bridge to the Flintstones theme, which is a "Rhythm Changes" tune (the chord changes from "I Got Rhythm"), uses a cycle: D7 -> G7 -> C7 -> F7 -> Bb (the key of the song is roughly Bb major).

 

3) Chromatic movement. Chords can move up and down chromatically, and many situations will work well because it's the same kind of chord being moved around. For example, the firt two measures of the prechorus from Stevie Wonder's "Sir Duke" is E9 Eb9 D9 Db9 D9 Eb9 E9. It just takes a dominant 9th chord and moves it down and back up again by half step.

 

 

Some of the more unusual ones have some substitutions used, but in the end usually boil down to either modal borrowing, cycles of some kind, or chromatic movement.

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Posted

Great, thanks for that breakdown, I'll keep those 3 categories in mind from now on. Would something like Cmaj7-B fit into the 3rd type or can it be called a substitution?

Posted

 

Great, thanks for that breakdown, I'll keep those 3 categories in mind from now on. Would something like Cmaj7-B fit into the 3rd type or can it be called a substitution?

 

 

Keep in mind that I'm just generalizing. There are always exceptions and things that work that you wouldn't expect to.

 

Cmaj7-B is really just a dressed up C-B, which is just moving chromatically. Any time that you add extensions to chords, it makes things much easier to move around since there are more notes that could possibly lead by half step or common tone to the next chord. By making C into Cmaj7, you now have a common B between both chords instead of all half step movement.

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Posted

 

Can someone explain the theory of non-diatonic chord progressions (for example, G D A E) or point me to a link where I can understand patterns such as these, and more complicated ones? I keep coming across a lot of such progressions that seem to be outside the scope of basic diatonic theory.

 

 

 

 

Remember that a lot of people who write songs don't know theory. Hence they might not write chord progressions or melodies that strictly adhere to diatonic theory.

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Posted

 

I'll never forget reading the last few sentences of a harmony book I bought years ago:


"As you can plainly see, just about any harmonic movement can be justified in some way. Therefore, any chord can lead to any other chord."


I threw the book away.

 

 

???????????????????????????????????????????

 

what's wrong with that statement?

Posted

 

Remember that a lot of people who write songs don't know theory. Hence they might not write chord progressions or melodies that strictly adhere to diatonic theory.

 

 

Even when people are writing by ear though, they are still writing with a certain unstated, subconscious logic and understanding for a progression. These unstated rules are what makes something "sound good" or not. When writing mostly by ear and not by conscious rules (in other words, by using subconscious rules instead of conscious ones), many people aren't as afraid to venture into more unusual territory because they aren't aware that it's quite so unusual or complex. Regardless, in the end there still is a logic and reason to the chord progressions, even though it may be complicated to understand, because otherwise it just wouldn't sound good.

 

With all that said, it's still good to have conscious understanding, as that can allow to know what is customary and common, and whether to use it or to avoid and try something different in writing. The subconscious logic of the ear and the conscious logic of the analytical mind are both mutually beneficial tools in music. Some people just use more than one than the other, but either way, it's still some kind of logic, and thus thing still "sound good."

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Posted

 

Even when people are writing by ear though, they are still writing with a certain unstated, subconscious logic and understanding for a progression. These unstated rules are what makes something "sound good" or not. When writing mostly by ear and not by conscious rules (in other words, by using subconscious rules instead of conscious ones), many people aren't as afraid to venture into more unusual territory because they aren't aware that it's quite so unusual or complex. Regardless, in the end there still is a logic and reason to the chord progressions, even though it may be complicated to understand, because otherwise it just wouldn't sound good.


With all that said, it's still good to have conscious understanding, as that can allow to know what is customary and common, and whether to use it or to avoid and try something different in writing. The subconscious logic of the ear and the conscious logic of the analytical mind are both mutually beneficial tools in music. Some people just use more than one than the other, but either way, it's still some kind of logic, and thus thing still "sound good."

 

 

Great post.

 

My desire to understand more and more music theory comes from wanting more control over the songwriting process. There will always be an infinite unknown beyond what is known to you; lack of creativity does not come from having a large known universe or trying to expand it further, it comes from wanting to stay in the comfort of the known universe, however large or small it may be, and not venturing beyond. In case you're still reading this, I hope that made sense!

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Posted

 

Even when people are writing by ear though, they are still writing with a certain unstated, subconscious logic and understanding for a progression. These unstated rules are what makes something "sound good" or not. When writing mostly by ear and not by conscious rules (in other words, by using subconscious rules instead of conscious ones), many people aren't as afraid to venture into more unusual territory because they aren't aware that it's quite so unusual or complex. Regardless, in the end there still is a logic and reason to the chord progressions, even though it may be complicated to understand, because otherwise it just wouldn't sound good.


With all that said, it's still good to have conscious understanding, as that can allow to know what is customary and common, and whether to use it or to avoid and try something different in writing. The subconscious logic of the ear and the conscious logic of the analytical mind are both mutually beneficial tools in music. Some people just use more than one than the other, but either way, it's still some kind of logic, and thus thing still "sound good."

 

 

 

Well written expansion of my point.

 

I'd add that although consonant and dissonant harmonic structures are processed by separate mechanisms in the auditory cortex, "sounding good" is largely a cultural phenomenon for the listener.

 

Therefore, if you listen to music from (or influenced by) a culture that doesn't use diatonic theory as the norm, you will find a lot of examples that are "outside the scope of basic diatonic theory."

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Posted

You can build a chord progression with major scales with roots in a pentatonic scale.

 

For instance, all of the chords that you suggested are in E pentatonic

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Posted

 

Great, thanks for that breakdown, I'll keep those 3 categories in mind from now on. Would something like Cmaj7-B fit into the 3rd type or can it be called a substitution?

 

 

It would be a substitution for a dominant chord. Any of the chords can be dominant seventh chords.

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