Members Picktrade Posted December 5, 2008 Members Posted December 5, 2008 I've taught guitar in the past and will be starting back up in January, and this is what I like to tell parents and students when they are first starting out. I'd like to hear any feedback as to whether you agree/disagree with my thoughts on this subject and why. There is a significant learning curve when learning to play guitar. Holding a guitar is not a natural position for a person. The left hand is put in a postition opposite of its natural position. The strings are metal and push into the fingers which can be painful to uncalloused finger tips. You need to learn to use both hands at the same time right from day 1. The fret board is much more difficult to visualize notes on than say a piano and the fact that the exact same note appears on the fretboard several times can be confusing. Compared to learning piano for example, the guitar is much more difficult for a beginner. With piano you can learn one hand first, each note appears once on the keyboard, the keyboard is laid out in a way easier format to memorize where the notes are, etc... I've noticed kids who already have learned piano take to guitar far quicker than kids who havent'. The steep learning curve, in my opinion, is the reason for why so many kids quit guitar. But, once you get over the hump, things happen quickly and that is where it all becomes worthwhile. It is very rewarding as a teacher to see someone get over that hump and relaly take off. I always seem to go back to the comparison to the piano as it is the other common instrument kids learn. I've always thought guitar is "hard to learn, easier to master" while piano is "easier to learn, harder to master". My master I mean become proficient. Sorry to ramble on. So am I full of crap?
Members Stackabones Posted December 5, 2008 Members Posted December 5, 2008 Not sure if the steep learning curve is the only reason for quitting guitar, but it could one of many. A more common reason imo is the student-teacher relationship. Your idea about the guitar being hard to learn makes me wonder what style of guitar you are teaching. Building up callouses and getting over the hump are definitely early hurdles, but probably not as difficult as getting over the hump when playing any other instrument. As far as mastery is concerned, have you heard about the 10K hours of practice to mastery? I didn't put that too elegantly, but research has shown that 10K hours of practice is something that all masters have achieved. There is an extra something to that figure -- for some musicians practice 10K hours yet never become masters. That extra something is that masters care about every minute of the 10K practice time. It means something to them. There should be articles on the web about this, and iirc it's also in the book, Your Brain On Music.
Members jeremy_green Posted December 5, 2008 Members Posted December 5, 2008 I agree with both of you guys. I dont think your ramblings are off base - quite correct. Yet Stackabones is correct in saying that isnt why they all quit. That has more to do with a persons attitude. A good teacher can help this ... but as a father of 3 kids i see that certain traits such as patience and the wanting to please and to a degree work ethic come more naturally to some people. My kids all raised the same way are 3 very different types. In my case I have: The creative intellect, the good boy and the fun loving, slightly hard to contain worker. (Not great to put your kids in a box - just generalizing for the sake of this discussion.) So this has some to do with it for sure. Conversely, actually in many ways the piano can be harder to learn for some because let's face it - to youngins piano aint all that cool. If I want a young student to get jacked up throw on an AC DC video or some clips of hendrix smashing his guitar. If something is cool - they will want to do it. So this as a motivator is easier in that regard. The 10K thing - Stackabones you are right on. I put in many hours of playing in ... which isnt always practicing. Only recently I actually learned how to practice and my playing as lifted off. It makes me sad i didnt get this younger. Good practice habits lead to deeper understanding - the rest is in the players ability to be creative and open minded. Sorry I went off - in answer to your question. I think your rant is sound for the most part.
Members Jasco Posted December 5, 2008 Members Posted December 5, 2008 ...also in the book, Your Brain On Music. Great book.
Members DanSlime Posted December 5, 2008 Members Posted December 5, 2008 interesting subject. There are a couple inter-related aspects - one is "being a musician" and another is "playing the guitar". I think most masters have spent more time on the musicianship in those 10k hours than someone who spent the same ammount of time and still sucks. It doesn't mean the masters don't know technique (some 'masters' are less technical than others tho), but they all can see beyond the instrument to the bigger picture of making music.
Members bgator Posted December 7, 2008 Members Posted December 7, 2008 Holding a guitar is not a natural position for a person. The left hand is put in a postition opposite of its natural position.Compared to learning piano for example, the guitar is much more difficult for a beginner. With piano you can learn one hand first, each note appears once on the keyboard, the keyboard is laid out in a way easier format to memorize where the notes are, etc... I totally agree with your first point. I'm left handed and play the guitar right handed b/c I think it's much more natural that way. I have no idea why it was designed they way they did for right handed people, because it certainly seems backwards to me. As for your second point, I can somewhat see what your getting at. But as somebody that's taken severals years of lessons on both instruments, I just can't agree. The are both hard, although for different reasons. Sure, it is a little easier on piano that one note only appears in one place. However, one very difficult thing about piano for a beginner is that your left and right hands can be playing totally different rhythms. That never happens on guitar. So, I just can't agree that piano is easier for a beginner.
Members Virgman Posted December 7, 2008 Members Posted December 7, 2008 I think piano is way easier visually.
Members heavy D Posted December 8, 2008 Members Posted December 8, 2008 I rank learning instruments in terms of instant gratification. For instance, it's really easy to get started on the piano, because anybody can sit down at a piano and start plinking out a song. The guitar is a little harder- getting the left and right hands in sink and the dexterity takes some time. But it's nothing compared to say, a trumpet. It can take weeks on trumpet before some students even begin to make a sound. At least on guitar you can make some noise right away. Along those lines, I think any kld will learn their second instrument quicker than their first, regardless of what it is. I'm at the point where I can pick up most any instrument and with a little practice get to a point where I can play something on it, and it's because I've spent so much time listening and learning music in general. It's applied knowledge. I think most of the time when a kid doesn't get it, it's because a) he isn't dedicated enough, and b) the teacher isn't rewarding the kid with enough of the "instant gratification" I mentioned earlier. To much scale, etudes, etc, will turn off many students. The piano is the best instrument to teach theory on because of the way it lays out. It's easy to visualize. You can also play harmony and melody at the same time, which is very important for learning how things sound when learning theory. IMO, everyone should be familiar with the piano.
Members benzem Posted December 8, 2008 Members Posted December 8, 2008 I think you'd be better off talking about the positive side. No one wants to hear how unnatural it feels to play at 1st.I teach and I tell prospective student's and mom's all the advantages of playing the worlds most versatile portable instrument:thu:
Members Li Shenron Posted December 8, 2008 Members Posted December 8, 2008 I've taught guitar in the past and will be starting back up in January, and this is what I like to tell parents and students when they are first starting out. I'd like to hear any feedback as to whether you agree/disagree with my thoughts on this subject and why. There is a significant learning curve when learning to play guitar. Holding a guitar is not a natural position for a person. The left hand is put in a postition opposite of its natural position. The strings are metal and push into the fingers which can be painful to uncalloused finger tips. You need to learn to use both hands at the same time right from day 1. The fret board is much more difficult to visualize notes on than say a piano and the fact that the exact same note appears on the fretboard several times can be confusing. Compared to learning piano for example, the guitar is much more difficult for a beginner. With piano you can learn one hand first, each note appears once on the keyboard, the keyboard is laid out in a way easier format to memorize where the notes are, etc... I've noticed kids who already have learned piano take to guitar far quicker than kids who havent'. The steep learning curve, in my opinion, is the reason for why so many kids quit guitar. But, once you get over the hump, things happen quickly and that is where it all becomes worthwhile. It is very rewarding as a teacher to see someone get over that hump and relaly take off. I always seem to go back to the comparison to the piano as it is the other common instrument kids learn. I've always thought guitar is "hard to learn, easier to master" while piano is "easier to learn, harder to master". My master I mean become proficient. Sorry to ramble on. So am I full of crap? I wouldn't say you're wrong, but I don't see the point of presenting this to your new students. It might just put them off before beginning... Maybe it's better to save this for when they realize it's not so easy to become good in a short time. A good thing about guitar is that there are so many proficiency levels at which the guitar can be played, from strumming at the bonfire to Shawn Lane, and all of them are enjoable! Personally I think I have received compliments about my playing skills when I was only a bonfire-strummer about as often as I received when I learned to play a few Dream Theater or Steve Vai songs (my peak so far). It might actually be much harder for others... a friend of mine is a GREAT jazz saxophonist (semiprofessional, but tours worldwide with elders and has several bands with his name in the band's name - meaning that people go to the show to listen to HIM rather than the band). Still I remember when we started at the same time in the same school, and he went on for at least one year just practicing single notes!
Members bigboy_78 Posted December 8, 2008 Members Posted December 8, 2008 I learnt piano first and would say that it takes a lot longer to sound impressive on the piano, and even longer if you want to play in a key other than C, but once you "get it" the piano is much easier to negotiate 12 bar blues and a minor pent shape and you're a guitar hero, in all 12 keys, but I'm finding that to actually play the guitar at a compentent (in my opinion) fashion is taking a lot longer.
Members Picktrade Posted December 9, 2008 Author Members Posted December 9, 2008 Thats a good point, the patterns on the fret board make it easier to transcribe than piano/.
Members stomias Posted December 9, 2008 Members Posted December 9, 2008 It's all about inspiring and motivating the student. After learning 3 chords they should start learning the thousands of songs that can be played using only three chords. Blues, pop, country whatever it is that the student likes. Basic theory should start at the begining. How can we communicate without it??? Remember some people cannot be motivated or inspired. Avoid these people.
Members jusca Posted December 9, 2008 Members Posted December 9, 2008 I totally agree with your first point. I'm left handed and play the guitar right handed b/c I think it's much more natural that way. I have no idea why it was designed they way they did for right handed people, because it certainly seems backwards to me.As for your second point, I can somewhat see what your getting at. But as somebody that's taken severals years of lessons on both instruments, I just can't agree. The are both hard, although for different reasons. Sure, it is a little easier on piano that one note only appears in one place. However, one very difficult thing about piano for a beginner is that your left and right hands can be playing totally different rhythms. That never happens on guitar. So, I just can't agree that piano is easier for a beginner. I agree with you on piano rhythms. I took piano lessons for a summer (out of curiousity) and I could not get my left and right hands to work independently on different rhythms. I eventually quit. I'll never think about abandoning my guitar for a piano again! lol Everything felt awkward on the piano especially chord changes.
Members DanSlime Posted December 9, 2008 Members Posted December 9, 2008 I played saxophone for about 6 years before switching to guitar. There was a foundation of learning to read and knowing the accidentals for each key signature. You HAVE to know the accidentals otherwise you play the wrong notes! Each key has a feeling to it that I don't know if you can get from learning to play on guitar. On the other hand, people who start on guitar will probably have some other foundations down that are unique to the instrument (hard for me to say since I didn't start on guitar). I'd imagine chords and intervals are one of those areas...just being able to play more than one note gives you an advantage in the ear training department.
Members LucianoFigallo Posted December 13, 2008 Members Posted December 13, 2008 Compared to learning piano for example, the guitar is much more difficult for a beginner. Because the piano is more "graphical" and "symmetrical" than the guitar's fingerboard...that is non symmetrical (the frets are not of the same size, they are shorter on higher notes) and the left hand has to learn those different sizes and those different amounts of pressure to apply on each fret playing each string...
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