Members Santuzzo Posted December 21, 2008 Members Posted December 21, 2008 I'm trying to play this Metal riff I came up with, and in order to make it sound good and fat I want to play most of it downpicked in 8th notes, but it's causing me a lot of trouble getting it up to speed. I tend to cramp up in my upper arm. Anybody else have problems with this? I'm trying to practice it in bursts, ie play 4 8th notes and then rest 2 beats or something. Suggestions/advice/thoughts/exercises are welcome. Thanks,Lars edit: PS : I am trying hard te remind myself of a great quote "patience have you must, young Padawan, or a Jedi become you never will"
Members Stackabones Posted December 21, 2008 Members Posted December 21, 2008 Just slow down. When you nail it at lower speeds, speed it up gradually and not in big increments.
Members Santuzzo Posted December 21, 2008 Author Members Posted December 21, 2008 Just slow down. When you nail it at lower speeds, speed it up gradually and not in big increments. Thanks! Yes, that is actually what I have been doing, but it gets so frustrating, I was trying to record my riff to a drumbeat, and I set a speed that sounded good to me, but I could not play it properly at that speed which was 210BPM.I even start having trouble at only 190BPM:mad: I'd usually start playing through the riff at 180BPM once, and then increase speed by 2BPM, but I keep getting stuck at the same speed....
Members mosiddiqi Posted December 22, 2008 Members Posted December 22, 2008 ...are you picking strictly from the wrist?...you shouldn't have any pain in your upper arm unless you're picking from the elbow I think?... I'm sure it's not "correct" but I find with fast downpicking, I'm almost using only finger/thumb movement..
Members Santuzzo Posted November 15, 2009 Author Members Posted November 15, 2009 sorry to bump an old thread, but I am still stuck on the fast downpicking.I have been working on a riff that I want to be able to play at least at 200 BPM (downpicked 8thnotes), which is still a lot slower than 'tallica's Master Of Puppets (which I think I will never be able to play downpicked). What frustrates me the most at this point is that it seems I need to keep working on this (almost) every day just in order to maintain whichever speed I am at. I did not work on the downpicking for only one week, and my speed dropped down by 10 BPM:eek:.2 weeks ago I remember being able to build it up to 200 BPM, the last week I have been struggling with 190 BPM. Does anybody else have this kibnd of problem or troulbe with fast downpicking in general?How do you work on it? Lars
Members Pankot Posted November 15, 2009 Members Posted November 15, 2009 Is the problem (a) that you can't reach the desired speed at all (your wrist just won't move that fast) or (b) you can hit the speed but only for a very short time (i.e. fatigue or cramp stops you being to play the riff usefully) If (b), then the extra stamina will come with practice, but it is a long haul. Make sure that you're not tensing up anywhere, that you're hydrated, etc. If (a), try to work on minimising the movement as much as possible. The smaller the distance the pick is moving, the faster you can move it. If you see Hetfield in action you'll notice that his movements are very economic. Bear in mind that everyone (even JH ) will have a top speed that they simply can't exceed - we are all biologically different. So even if you crack this riff (and the best of luck to you) what happens when you come up with one that you want to play at 230 bpm? You do need to have a "Plan B." For example, you may really feel that a riff "needs" to be played at a certain speed - but it may be because that's just how it first came to you. Try playing it with a radically differnent tempo and groove to someone else; they may like it that way. A good riff, like a good melody, can survive a tempo change. Also, try working on making your upstrokes sound fatter, so that switching to alternate picking doesn't feel so much like a step down power-wise.
Members Santuzzo Posted November 15, 2009 Author Members Posted November 15, 2009 Is the problem (a) that you can't reach the desired speed at all (your wrist just won't move that fast) or (b) you can hit the speed but only for a very short time (i.e. fatigue or cramp stops you being to play the riff usefully) If (b), then the extra stamina will come with practice, but it is a long haul. Make sure that you're not tensing up anywhere, that you're hydrated, etc. If (a), try to work on minimising the movement as much as possible. The smaller the distance the pick is moving, the faster you can move it. If you see Hetfield in action you'll notice that his movements are very economic. Bear in mind that everyone (even JH ) will have a top speed that they simply can't exceed - we are all biologically different. So even if you crack this riff (and the best of luck to you) what happens when you come up with one that you want to play at 230 bpm? You do need to have a "Plan B." For example, you may really feel that a riff "needs" to be played at a certain speed - but it may be because that's just how it first came to you. Try playing it with a radically differnent tempo and groove to someone else; they may like it that way. A good riff, like a good melody, can survive a tempo change. Also, try working on making your upstrokes sound fatter, so that switching to alternate picking doesn't feel so much like a step down power-wise. Thanks for your post ! In this case it's (b), I already had the speed I desired, but it seems to be only happening on 'good' days, or I need to really work on this everyday for at least 15 mins to get it and to keep it. Great advice also on the idea of considering changing the speed! Thanks again, I appreciate your post. Lars
Members Pankot Posted November 15, 2009 Members Posted November 15, 2009 In this case it's (b), I already had the speed I desired, but it seems to be only happening on 'good' days, or I need to really work on this everyday for at least 15 mins to get it and to keep it. When you're operating near your physical limits, then you will (a) have "on" and "off" days; and (b) need to "use it or lose it." This applies whether you're playing guitar, drums, or singing. So I would advise that you keep working at it regularly but also include some practice at around 10-20 bpm slower where you really concentrate on form, learning to relax around the shoulders and in the elbow. A lot of the fatigue comes from unnecessary effort around there. Don't underestimate the power of psychology either. You may be tensing up just because you know that you're going for the target speed. Do you have a setting on your metronome that slowly accelerates by itself, so that you don't know (until *after* you've done it) when you reach 200? Lastly, eventually you will find a speed that you can keep up for a song but not for a whole set. So be sure to plan your set sensibly, just as a singer will space out the more demanding songs with easier ones to give his/her larynx a rest! HTH:)
Members mc_carlini Posted November 15, 2009 Members Posted November 15, 2009 I have experienced that problem myself but i find that is because i'm so tense. I just relax my arm and it usually helps. I also double check to make sure it is my wrist that is moving, not my entire arm. If you are still interested in exercises, try checking these out. http://www.shredx.info/ShredX.info/Rhythm/Rhythm.html hope this helps!
Members Santuzzo Posted November 15, 2009 Author Members Posted November 15, 2009 I have experienced that problem myself but i find that is because i'm so tense. I just relax my arm and it usually helps. I also double check to make sure it is my wrist that is moving, not my entire arm. If you are still interested in exercises, try checking these out. http://www.shredx.info/ShredX.info/Rhythm/Rhythm.html hope this helps! Thanks for your input and the link. I will definitely check out the exercises. I remember looking at your site a while ago, and it had somegreat sutff.
Members mc_carlini Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 Glad to help Forgot to mention this earlier, but if you are playing songs such as Master of Puppets that involve using your fret hand alot, make sure your fret hand is warmed up.. That way, if you are making errors, you will be sure that most if not all the errors you are making are coming from your picking hand.
Members Li Shenron Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 Bear in mind that everyone (even JH ) will have a top speed that they simply can't exceed I think downpicking's top speed is less than half than alternate picking's top speed for everyone. So the downpicking speed limit is met quite early actually... But in my opinion fortunately at that speed downpicking usually doesn't sound that much different from alternate, there is some difference in rhythmic feel but when you get that fast you tend to lose the meaning of that difference. So unless you really really enjoy that subtle difference, at some point it may be better to switch to alternate and be more relaxed.
Members Santuzzo Posted November 16, 2009 Author Members Posted November 16, 2009 I think downpicking's top speed is less than half than alternate picking's top speed for everyone. So the downpicking speed limit is met quite early actually... But in my opinion fortunately at that speed downpicking usually doesn't sound that much different from alternate, there is some difference in rhythmic feel but when you get that fast you tend to lose the meaning of that difference. So unless you really really enjoy that subtle difference, at some point it may be better to switch to alternate and be more relaxed. Thanks for your post. Well, for me it's the opposite. For some reason, my downpicking (8th notes) is faster still than my alternate picking (16th notes). I can downpick 8th notes at 180 up to 190, and on a good day meybe even 200, but my alternate picking tops out at about 160-170 (just tremolo picking on one note) And to me it sounds a lot different if I downpick or alternate pick a riff (at least when I play it). But I agree, if everything fails, I should consider alternate picking the riff.
Members Li Shenron Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 Well, for me it's the opposite. For some reason, my downpicking (8th notes) is faster still than my alternate picking (16th notes). I can downpick 8th notes at 180 up to 190, and on a good day meybe even 200, but my alternate picking tops out at about 160-170 (just tremolo picking on one note) It's quite strange Just picture the movements your pick is making: in alternate picking it's moving up/down a couple of millimeters to do 2 notes; in downpicking it's moving roughly in a circular shape to do 1 note. It means that it actually has to travel more for 1 note only if you just downpick. Of course if you are used to mostly downpick, then it's more comfortable for you and will easily give you the general opinion that downpicking is easier/better. In my early years I had an even more odd habit... My teacher had given me a lot of uppicking exercises to strengthen the uppick part of alternate picking, since I wasn't good at making the up and down part sound the same when alternating. I did so many uppicking exercises that I became really much faster at uppicking than at downpicking! Uppicking became much easier for me, unlike anyone else I knew. However, those trainings also fixed my general alternate picking, so after a while I just used that
Members Santuzzo Posted November 16, 2009 Author Members Posted November 16, 2009 It's quite strange Just picture the movements your pick is making: in alternate picking it's moving up/down a couple of millimeters to do 2 notes; in downpicking it's moving roughly in a circular shape to do 1 note. It means that it actually has to travel more for 1 note only if you just downpick. Of course if you are used to mostly downpick, then it's more comfortable for you and will easily give you the general opinion that downpicking is easier/better. In my early years I had an even more odd habit... My teacher had given me a lot of uppicking exercises to strengthen the uppick part of alternate picking, since I wasn't good at making the up and down part sound the same when alternating. I did so many uppicking exercises that I became really much faster at uppicking than at downpicking! Uppicking became much easier for me, unlike anyone else I knew. However, those trainings also fixed my general alternate picking, so after a while I just used that Yes, to me it would seem more logical, too that the alternate picking should be faster (at 16ths) than the downpicking (at 8ths). I do actually practice my alternate picking quite a lot, much more than my downpicking, but I use a different picking position and motion for the downpicking. Practicing only uppicking sounds like a good idea. What kind of exercises did you practice uppicking with? Just on one note or scales?
Members Li Shenron Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 Practicing only uppicking sounds like a good idea. What kind of exercises did you practice uppicking with? Just on one note or scales? Mostly patterns over the 3-notes-per-strings scale positions, but try not to pick patterns with lots of string changes at first. Begin with patterns that require you to change strings only every now and then like: -------------------------------------------------------etc.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2-3-5-2-3-5----------------------------2-3-5-2-3-5-----------------------------1-3-5-1-3-5-----------------------------1-3-5-1-3-5-------------------------------------------
Members Santuzzo Posted November 16, 2009 Author Members Posted November 16, 2009 Aha! Here may be some explanation... I think both picking could use the same posture and motion, although there isn't only one possible. Have you tried out to switch the motion type and the picking? Mostly patterns over the 3-notes-per-strings scale positions, but try not to pick patterns with lots of string changes at first. Begin with patterns that require you to change strings only every now and then like: -------------------------------------------------------etc. -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------2-3-5-2-3-5 ----------------------------2-3-5-2-3-5--------------- --------------1-3-5-1-3-5----------------------------- 1-3-5-1-3-5------------------------------------------- Cool ! Thanks For the downpicking I use 'rotational wrist' movement, for my fast alternate picking I use elbow movement. I have been trying to use the rotating wrist also for the alternate picking, but I just can't seem to get that up to the same speed at which I can alternate pickg with the elbow. I have been working in my elbow picking for many years now, and when I started using it, I had a stiff and tense arm, but now I can elbow pick with a relaxed arm and hand and it's controlled. But I am still working on figuring out how to use the wrist rotation for alternate picking, maybe one day I will get it. Thanks for that idea, I will practice some uppicking, I have the feeling that will help my laternate and my downpicking a lot in the long run.
Members jeremy_green Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 Lars, Hetfield ONLY ever crunches out fast down picked riffs - so to get to those speeds you need to spend significant time doing just that. Learn a whole bunch of metal songs of that vibe. Or better yet join a metal band. It really is a vibe that is signature of that genre so you need to dive into it for a bit and it will come. Cheers
Members mosiddiqi Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 To reiterate Jeremy's point...it takes a lot of time just working on downpicking to get it down. I don't do this at all nowadays and as a result, suck at it. Many years ago ..I used to play a lot of thrash metal and really got the technique down by doing nothing but playing along with "Ride the lightning" and "Master of Puppets" for several months..definitely a "use it or lose it" type of technique I've found though.
Members The Burninator Posted November 16, 2009 Members Posted November 16, 2009 Back in the mid 90's Kirk Hammet had a column in GW. He dedicated some of those to metal rhythm playing, giving examples and tips from his experience in Metallica. He said that they usually use all downstrokes to get a sound with more balls (that metal vibe), but that in some cases the riff is just too fast to play with all downstrokes, IIRC he gave a song from Kill 'Em All as an examle and said that Master of Puppets isn't their all-downpicking top speed, but it's really close. I doutbt that anyone could play Dyers Eve using only down strokes. It's kinda funny that Metallica is mentiond alot on a thread by a guy named Lars
Members Santuzzo Posted November 16, 2009 Author Members Posted November 16, 2009 Back in the mid 90's Kirk Hammet had a column in GW. He dedicated some of those to metal rhythm playing, giving examples and tips from his experience in Metallica. He said that they usually use all downstrokes to get a sound with more balls (that metal vibe), but that in some cases the riff is just too fast to play with all downstrokes, IIRC he gave a song from Kill 'Em All as an examle and said that Master of Puppets isn't their all-downpicking top speed, but it's really close. I doutbt that anyone could play Dyers Eve using only down strokes. It's kinda funny that Metallica is mentiond alot on a thread by a guy named Lars I remember that column by Kirk. I think I still have some of those magazines. IIRC I saw some life clips of 'tallica playing MOP, and while Hetfield was still downpicking, Hammett played it alternate picked. Thanks again, everybody for your input and advice, I appreciate it:wave:
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