Members karma279 Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 I'm finally getting around to learning the fretboard; instead of relying on ear and trial/error.I've made jpgs to print that will let me fill in each note on each string on 11 frets plus open string (standard tuning). But I still can't seem to catch the "trick" or pattern to memorizing it. I can fill it out just fine; but I have to do it starting on the string at the open position and go up (only knowing a few scattered notes by memory). I've high-lit only the major notes (non flat/sharp) thinking that's all I need to know... the flats/sharps are given.What's the secret? What's the trick to being able to know exacty what notes are where?
Members mhr74 Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Learn some tunes that involve memorization by reading off a staff. Playing classical guitar did it for me.
Members karma279 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Members Posted January 6, 2009 Right now that would be a problem for me.. I can read staff to know what note, but I wouldn't know key... where to apply to fretboard. If I see an A on a staff I wouldn't know if it should be 6th string 5th fret or 3rd string 2nd fret etc. I'm taking a fundamentals course this semester.. I hope it'll help some. Any "cheats" or tricks for getting it down?
Members Jasco Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Right now that would be a problem for me..I can read staff to know what note, but I wouldn't know key... where to apply to fretboard. If I see an A on a staff I wouldn't know if it should be 6th string 5th fret or 3rd string 2nd fret etc. I'm taking a fundamentals course this semester.. I hope it'll help some.Any "cheats" or tricks for getting it down? Jon Finn had a great quote regarding this in a previous thread that I wish I could remember now. Anyhow, no, there are no cheats or tricks. Just do the work and stop trying to find cheats. That is really the shortest way. Also, don't worry so much about the goal. Instead, enjoy the process. For the basic music reading information, go buy Mel Bay book one and it will tell you where the notes on the staff should be played on the fretboard. If you have any kind of ear at all you'll be able to match unison notes for other playing/reading in other positions.
Members karma279 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Members Posted January 6, 2009 If you have any kind of ear at all you'll be able to match unison notes for other playing/reading in other positions. That shouldn't be a problem... that's how I play now. I'm a rhythm player, but I can come up with basic solos to songs I write by just messing around and listening. I know they are in a key that works because I can hear it. Though I have no idea what notes/key/scale I'm playing (other than some basic minor pentatonic) I've found the way to find any note I want on the fretboard by looking at it now by using the 2 down/2 over - 2 down/3 over. But would like to just know where the notes are.
Members Jasco Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 I've found the way to find any note I want on the fretboard by looking at it now by using the 2 down/2 over - 2 down/3 over. But would like to just know where the notes are. OK, cool. Now just figure out the note names for everything you play (including all the notes in every chord you play), and think those note names while playing, even if you have to work extremely slow. Do this all the time and at some point in the near future, the note names will start to become automatic.
Members Bumhucker Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Learn some scales. Start out by memorizing a scale on one string.. then two strings, then three, etc... After a while you start to connect all the different scale patterns, and see how the fretboard isn't so mysterious after all.
Members Virgman Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Learn 7th Chord arpeggios on E-A-D-G-B strings. Backwards and forwards. In several keys. Learning where the root notes of the arps are will teach you. This question gets asked every other day.
Moderators Jed Posted January 6, 2009 Moderators Posted January 6, 2009 I'm with Virgman on arpeggios. If you don't know your chord spelling, you can start with triads (my preference over 7th chords). If you don't know your triads then you can learn all the locations for "C" notes (12 locations on a 22-fret guitar, study that for a week). Then learn all the locations for "G" notes (study that for a week while reviewing the "C" note locations). Then learn all the locations for "E" notes (study that for a week, while reviewing the "C" & "G" note locations). After three weeks you'll know where all the "C", "E" & "G" notes are on the fretboard and you'll be able to start working out how to play the C major triad arpeggios all over the neck. Each week or so add one note to create a new triad that uses two of the notes you've already learned. For example week #4 could be to add the locations for the "A" notes. Then with the "C" and "E" note locations you'll have all the notes for the A minor triad arpeggios. Week #5 could be to add the locations for the "F" notes. Then with the "A" and "C" note locations you'll have all the notes for the F major triad arpeggios. Week #6 could be to add the locations for the "D" notes. Then with the "F" and "A" note locations you'll have all the notes for the D minor triad arpeggios. Week #7 could be to add the locations for the "B" notes. Then with the "D" and "F" note locations you'll have all the notes for the B diminished triad arpeggios. By week #8, you'll know all the notes for all the triads in the key of C major. You'll still have to practice the arpeggios for G major (G B D) and E minor (E G B) and of course all the other triads to the point of internalization. etc, etc, etc cheers
Members gennation Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 The the Cycle of Note, and learn where your octaves are. These are the two best ways to start and give you something to build on. It will take time though, so don't bog yourself down with 20 ways to to it just yet Pick a note, memorize where all the octaves are. The octave positions are static, IOW they are movable and never change. This is the reference most people use. Then move to 5ths are these are very easy to find from a Root note. You can use this tutorial: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Intervals/Int1.htm It will give some common practices for using the fretboard "pictures" to lock in references for you.
Members Osiris Risen Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 I just started working my way through a Modern Method for Guitar by William Leavitt a few days ago and I'm already pretty comfortable with all the notes in first position. It isn't exactly fun, but it's also not as tedious as I had thought learning the fretboard and how to sight read would be. The sense of accomplishment I get when I can play through an exercise without any mistakes is worth the effort. After floundering about on my own for years and never improving, I feel like I might be getting somewhere.
Members Meowy Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Cross-reply to the cross-post Article with an interesting approach to leaning the fretboard...Also, I'd be interested in feedback on this approach from Gennation and the other heavies on this board===========================Learning All Notes on the FingerboardHere's a method that works really quickly (takes most people a couples of weeks if they work consistently on it).Remember, that once you get up to the 12th fret and beyond, the fretboard just repeats itself. So if you know where the notes are up to the 12th fret, you'll know them beyond the 12th as well.First learn where all the B's are. With the B's you get a visual block of four notes that always appear together as follows:EFBCSo a semitone above a B you get a C, on the next string up (in pitch) just above the B and C on the same frets, you get E and F. You can see this as a visual block of four notes. This means that in one mental step, you can find 4 notes. This single mental step is important. Remember, don't use you knowledge of where other notes are to find these BC,EF blocks. Just learn where they are without reference to anything other than the dots on the fretboard. That includes not using one block of BC,EF to find another.Note that when you cross from the G to the B string, the tuning is a major 3rd between these strings, where as its a 4th between all the others. This means that all visual patterns that cross cross the G and B strings have to be moved up a fret on the B string. This is of course true not just for visual patterns of where the notes are, but all scale arpegeo and interval patterns as well. Just think of everything on the B and high E string as being moved up one fret from the rest of the strings.Once you've learned these (and it shouldn't take long if you stick to it), learn where all the A's are. Above every A there is a D on the next string up (in pitch) on the same fret (but see above paragraph). So from learning the A's you have the D's as well.DAThis only leaves the G's. Most people find that once they've learned the rest of the notes, its pretty easy to see where the G's are. But I recommend you learn where they are without reference to the other notes.Once the notes are learned, what many people find is that if they don't use them, they start to forget them. So when you've learned them, you MUST start using them all the time. One problem is, that because people are used to playing without knowing where the notes are, even once they've learned them, they don't use this new knowledge. So its very important to make use of them right away. You'll find, that once you actually start using the notes, they will become a permanent part of your memory.Here are some exercises to get you using the notes.1) Put on some backing music in a particular key. We'll take for this example the key of A, but you should repeat this exercise for all the notes/keys. Solo over the backing. Start by finding a A on the G string beyond the 12th fret, stay in that position for a while, then find an A on the B string behind the 12th fret and continue soloing from there. Again after a while, find an A on the E string above the 12th fret, then after a few bars move to an A on the D string below the 12th fret etc... The object, is to move up and down the neck as much as possible when you change position. This is important because it means you can't fall back on relative visual cues like octave shapes etc...2) Put a chord progression on tape or sequencer that doesn't fall into a familiar pattern, in other words choose a set of chords that don't fit obviously into one key. The progression should contain 7 to 10 different chords. Play over the tape or sequencer. As each chord arrives, move to the root note of the chord and if possible play a scale (eg: a mode) that will fit with the type of chord (eg: minor, major etc...), but don't worry if you can't play the scale (unless you're a jazz player in which case you should be worried if you can't!). If playing over lots of chord changes is not part of your style, then perhaps just play the root of the chord and the 5th. As this exercise gets easier, do it again but move to opposite ends of the neck for each chord. Finally do it while staying within the same four fret area of the neck for example, from the 9th to the 12th frets, then do this repeatedly until you've covered all areas of the neck.3) When you are soloing in everyday playing situations and you want to move up or down the neck in order to play higher or lower notes, don't use the E string or scale shape to find your new pattern. Choose the area of the neck you want to move to roughly, then look for the root note on what ever string it appears in that area of the neck, and play from there. This is in fact how people who know the notes, actually move around the neck. As you probably know (or you wouldn't be reading this), using scale shapes to move up or down the neck is dangerous, its just too easy to loose your place. So use your new skill of knowing the notes instead, that's one of the things its for after all.
Moderators Jed Posted January 6, 2009 Moderators Posted January 6, 2009 After floundering about on my own for years and never improving, I feel like I might be getting somewhere.This is exactly how the addiction starts . . . a glimpse of clarity followed by months of woodshed-bound efforts and a bit of dispair, . . followed by another glimpse of where all this effort might lead. It's the "perfect drug" - cheap, readily available and completely addictive. cheers,
Members Virgman Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 This is exactly how the addiction starts . . . a glimpse of clarity followed by months of woodshed-bound efforts and a bit of dispair, . . followed by another glimpse of where all this effort might lead. It's the "perfect drug" - cheap, readily available and completely addictive. cheers,
Members jeremy_green Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Jasco and Jon +1 The "secret" to learning anything is hard work - no way around it. If you do it lots you will get it. To me the best way of killing 2 birds with one stone is sight reading in all positions. Learn first position, then make yourself read in second (no open strings) then 5th on and on. It isnt really hard just takes repetition and the key is not memorizing the pieces you play. If somebody was calling out notes in a random pattern with you having to play the note you would get it pretty quick. This is essentially what reading does and you can do it alone anywhere. Reading is the "secret" that served me best. Guitarists avoid it ... for the life of me I dont understand why. I am not a great sight reader and the gigs i get dont require it often. But i still do it as a warm up and it nails home things. Plus there are so many side benefits as well - cant say that about some of the other systems. Try it - one man's opinion : )
Moderators Jed Posted January 6, 2009 Moderators Posted January 6, 2009 The "secret" to learning anything is hard work - no way around it. If you do it lots you will get it. Agreed. A question for those that believe they do see the notes on the fretboard: Do you find yourselves continually re-defining what it means to "see the notes on the fretboard"? I used to think being able to name any note instantly or to be able to name the notes as I played was the end goal. But once I got there, I found it wasn't nearly enough . . for me. I find myself working now to be able to see multiple notes in context more quickly and without silently saying the note names (kind of like speed reading). I seem to be chasing "seeing the notes of the fretboard" in multiple contexts at the same time: As parts of various triad inversions or parts of various 7th chord voicings or pentatonic scales or various scale/key degrees (for chord function internalization / comping, etc, etc). I find these current efforts are pushing me ever more strongly towards complete internalization of all 15 major / relative minor keys as well (since I need to think relative to the chord and the key at the same time). I wonder sometimes if I'm chasing the ultimate "Note-Geek Merit Badge" or something. It seems as if I'm moving towards "seeing" chord progressions in any key as various comp'ing patterns. Don't get me wrong, I'm really digging it, but it really does strike me as a nearly impossible goal to attain. And yet the daily progress keeps me captivated by the possibilities. . . . looking forward to your thoughts. cheers,
Members DanSlime Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Like a couple people mentioned, playing the arps in all keys will help tremendously. One exercise is to go around in a cycle of 5ths, playing a couple octaves all the major, minor, diminished, and augmented triads for each root. One way I see the fretboard is what I'd call "key based." Based on the key, I see (or try to see - still a work in progress) all the intervals relative to the key...an obvious note to see is the tonic. Like seeing all the "A's" in the key of A. But instead of internally calling it "A" I just think "root." Like you just know that the 5th fret of the low E string is an A and that is the tonic of the key without even thinking about it. Then going beyond that, seeing all the other intervals relative to the key (like all the 3rds, 7ths, etc). An additional step beyond the "key based." Is the "chord based." This would be seeing all the intervals relative to the current chord. An additional step beyond "key based" and "chord based" would be combining the two and seeing the interval relationship for each fret position for both the current chord and the current key. I think that playing music in all the keys is a good way to learn the fretboard. A lot of guitarists say how "easy" certain keys are. After a while of playing its no problem to locate all the E's and A's on the fretboard...just because those keys are played so much. So thats 2 out of 12 notes right there. Just keep changing keys and all the notes will be as personal as the E's and A's.
Members jeremy_green Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Agreed. A question for those that believe they do see the notes on the fretboard:Do you find yourselves continually re-defining what it means to "see the notes on the fretboard"? I used to think being able to name any note instantly or to be able to name the notes as I played was the end goal. But once I got there, I found it wasn't nearly enough . . for me. I find myself working now to be able to see multiple notes in context more quickly and without silently saying the note names (kind of like speed reading). I seem to be chasing "seeing the notes of the fretboard" in multiple contexts at the same time: As parts of various triad inversions or parts of various 7th chord voicings or pentatonic scales or various scale/key degrees (for chord function internalization / comping, etc, etc).I find these current efforts are pushing me ever more strongly towards complete internalization of all 15 major / relative minor keys as well (since I need to think relative to the chord and the key at the same time). I wonder sometimes if I'm chasing the ultimate "Note-Geek Merit Badge" or something.It seems as if I'm moving towards "seeing" chord progressions in any key as various comp'ing patterns. Don't get me wrong, I'm really digging it, but it really does strike me as a nearly impossible goal to attain. And yet the daily progress keeps me captivated by the possibilities. . . . looking forward to your thoughts.cheers, Quick answer: YES - it drives me nuts : ) Longer answer:I find my whole approach has changed lately. I try to see the chord possibilities for each note. Based on the feeling I am after and the associated feelings the chords and their intervals produce those become my note centers if you will, or the notes i stand on. Of course i am adding passing tones and scale tones around those but for each passing chord I am superimposing. Or I will treat the tonic as though it is the 3rd of a chord or a 5th. That type of thing - gets me into some ugly messes sometimes but i enjoy the adventure. I have never been a safe player I enjoy going into what is to me uncharted waters. That's where I am at. As you said as long as you are enjoying the quest for the merit badge that is all that matters. You certainly will be a better player for having done so so i applaud that.
Members mhr74 Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 The the Cycle of Note, and learn where your octaves are. These are the two best ways to start and give you something to build on. It will take time though, so don't bog yourself down with 20 ways to to it just yet Pick a note, memorize where all the octaves are. The octave positions are static, IOW they are movable and never change. This is the reference most people use. Then move to 5ths are these are very easy to find from a Root note. these.once you get used to the scales and arpeggios they will superimpose right over the octaves, but first things first. I "see" octave then arp then scale before i hop in ad libbing. that efbc and da positioning consideration was an interesting tidbit.
Members Jasco Posted January 6, 2009 Members Posted January 6, 2009 Do you find yourselves continually re-defining what it means to "see the notes on the fretboard"? Absolutely. No matter how well you know it, you don't know it well enough. But the process of seeing more relationships/possibilities is fun. It's not the kill, it's the thrill of the chase.
Members karma279 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Members Posted January 7, 2009 Wow...Seems like a lot of info. Too much for an "ear" guy.I've been doing a little work on paper. I printed out fretboard and have been marking the Minor Pentatonic positions from memory (like this)That would be E Minor Pentatonic (all positions) right?I then started writing out the notes that are falling in the positions and found it's just EGABD repeated; with the first note being different.So what would the notes be in another key (minor pentatonic)? Say in the key of G. Would they be GA#CDF repeated? (I haven't worked any other keys out yet...)Would just being able to transition all 5 positions proficiently add alot to somones improvasation? My solos really suck and mostly stick to the first position minor pentatonic....
Members jeremy_green Posted January 7, 2009 Members Posted January 7, 2009 yes you are on it bro. Practice each shape ( there are 5 one starting off each note) memorize the full shape. Then move it around and keep going until it becomes intuitive. Then go diagonally through. Then go up and down the neck in two string groupings. On and on. Then use the same shape but make it major. Your E minor pentatonic is also a G major - same notes exactly just G becomes the tonal center
Members Jasco Posted January 7, 2009 Members Posted January 7, 2009 Wow... Seems like a lot of info. Too much for an "ear" guy. I've been doing a little work on paper. I printed out fretboard and have been marking the Minor Pentatonic positions from memory (like this) That would be E Minor Pentatonic (all positions) right? I then started writing out the notes that are falling in the positions and found it's just EGABD repeated; with the first note being different. So what would the notes be in another key (minor pentatonic)? Say in the key of G. Would they be GA#CDF repeated? (I haven't worked any other keys out yet...) Would just being able to transition all 5 positions proficiently add alot to somones improvasation? My solos really suck and mostly stick to the first position minor pentatonic.... G minor technically would be written with a Bb instead of A#. Same note on guitar, but at some level someone's going to want to hear you say it that way. Your assignment is to find out why it should be Bb instead of A#.As far as the next question, the answer is both yes and no. Having more of the fretboard memorized is always a good thing. It allows you to say things in different ways. But it won't necessarily make you a better improviser.Or, as you become a better improviser, having more of the neck memorized will give you more toys to play with.But, if you're not having fun playing with the toys you currently have, what makes you think that you'll play with your new toys any differently?Hope that makes sense.
Members gennation Posted January 7, 2009 Members Posted January 7, 2009 Writing things down is a true blue way of improv'ing...you'll understand without the instrument in your hand. I've always been one who wants to "know it" or "understanding it" more than just memorize it. Most of the greatest players fund their styles be looking at some representation of the instruments and "seeing things" in a special way...there is no bok or lesson that can open that up...sure someone can show you something that's been "seen before" but only you will be able to find new things by what YOU see. Anyways, here's a chart that was posted a while back, by Virg I think... You might also use my site to help you, my diagrams look much like the ones you drew...
Members nicfox Posted February 15, 2009 Members Posted February 15, 2009 I've recently started a blog about learning the guitar fretboard. As many posters have said, there is basically no substitute for putting the work in. Consistency pays off. I have found though, that there are many useful things that show up when you go looking for them:. Sorry for the corny name, but please check it out - it's got words and pictures and stuff*.* disclaimer: may not contain real or actual stuff.
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