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Swing timing


DirtyBird

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Posted

I'm musically retarded, especially when it comes to rhythm. :o

 

I'm a metal guy and I've been doing hte death metal thing for a while now, but the last few years I've started listening to a LOT of blues-rock/metal/stoner/whatever stuff. Some of it has what... I think... is a "Swing" feel to it. The same kind of rhythm that you find in a lot of blues, like SRV's Pride and Joy. Is this swing, or am I using the wrong terminology?

 

I've noticed I have a hard time playing solos over riffs I write that apparently have a "swing" to them, at least anything beyond simplistic pentatonic blues wankery. The way the timing feels, I can't go into my big multi-string runs up and down or anything that has a normal straight timing to it. It really seems to get in the way, but I've got tons of really great, hooky blues-metal songs I've started writing out (Ideally, I'd like to create a band in the vein of Spiritual Beggars...) but the swing timing thing seems to really be painting me into a corner as far as my playing style goes.

 

Like I said, I'm musically retarded. :facepalm:

 

I guess my question is, how should this be dealt with? I've tried writing swing riffs and following them up with riffs in a straight timing, and it just doesn't seem to work quite right.

 

Is there something to this stuff that I am missing, or am is this just the way it is? Songs that have a swing feel pretty much need to retain that swing feel throughout the whole song?

 

I know this is a bit basic, but it's only dawned on me recently as I've tried combining my metal and my blues together (I know, REAL original. :rolleyes:;) and I'm having problems.

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1-2-3

 

1-2-3

 

1-2-3 etc.

 

instead of

 

1-2-3-4

 

1-2-3-4

 

1-2-3-4

 

Your wanking, metronomic riffs are set to 1-2-3-4. Think of your 16th note triplets. 4 groups of 6 per bar in 4/4 time. Machine-like rhythm ala Paul Gilbert.

 

Yes, blues and jazz swing use a similar swing rhythm. Think of a smoky jazz or juke joint, people swaying to the rhythm... Sexy wimmens grinding their hips...

 

You get the picture. Ahem. Back on topic...

 

Now you know why shred bores most people. It's too metronomic & repetitive.

 

(I'm kidding.)

 

[YOUTUBE]ulMXbnovgJY&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

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Posted

The blues stuff is generally called a shuffle. The terms mean the same thing, but swing is usually used to describe jazz playing.

 

You've got to learn the difference between, and how to play, a straight eighth note and a swung eighth note to get that feel -- it sounds like you've got it. As far as switching between them in a tune, I'm sure there are songs that do that (I can't think of any right now), but once you start swinging you stay swinging. You could throw in some straight 8ths during your solo.

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SRV's Pride and Joy isn't a 3/4 tune. (123-123) Its a shuffle, in 4/4 time, (1234-1234). Go onto u-tube and look for "shuffle". For me when I play a tune like this, I hear the snare. Everything I play, I'm grooving on, or playing around the snare. When I play metal, I listen to the kick drum.

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Posted

 

SRV's Pride and Joy isn't a 3/4 tune. (123-123) Its a shuffle, in 4/4 time, (1234-1234). Go onto u-tube and look for "shuffle". For me when I play a tune like this, I hear the snare. Everything I play, I'm grooving on, or playing around the snare. When I play metal, I listen to the kick drum.

 

 

Right. Sorry for any confusion.

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Posted

 


The same kind of rhythm that you find in a lot of blues, like SRV's Pride and Joy. Is this swing, or am I using the wrong terminology?



 

 

Close. "Shuffle" is the term you want. As Stack-o-bones said, "swing" is for jazz, "shuffle" is for blues.

 

Both are similar, yet different.

 

To start with, here's how to count, or feel, a white-boy-rocker shuffle/swing type groove:

 

Instead of playing even eighth notes, you need to stretch the first one out longer, and make the second one shorter.

 

So, think a triplet feel, but only play the first and third triplets.

 

1 (2) 3 - 1 (2) 3 - 1 (2) 3 ect...

 

Now your first eighth note takes up 2/3's of the beat and your second eighth note takes up 1/3 of the beat.

 

After you get that down, and you want to make things really shuffle or swing, here's the next steps:

 

Shuffles are generally slower tempo than swing grooves.

 

For a shuffle, you want to extend the first note even more and shorten the second eighth. So instead of a 2/3's - 1/3 split you get an 80/20 of 90/10 split. It's more of a feel thing than something that's definitely quantifiable, and the tough thing about playing a real shuffle is getting your whole band to shuffle the same amount.

 

For swing, it's kind of the opposite, the notes should tend to slide a little bit more towards straight eighths. So instead of a 2/3 - 1/3 split for the eighth notes, maybe a 60/40 or 55/45 split. Again, you can't really quantify it as such, I'm just using numbers to give you the idea.

 

You can do all the thinking about this you want, but it won't help. The only way is to listen to shuffle or swing grooves you like and practice emulating them, both by yourself and in an ensemble environment. Be sure to record yourself so you can really listen to what is happening with your grooves.

 

I hope that helps.

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Posted

Practice all your lines with a deliberate dotted 8th / 16th rhythm. Most bop type swing floats somewhere between that figure and straight trips. As you get comfortable with that notion you can loosen up into the familiar yada yada yada gait.

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Posted

Jasco and 1001gear's descriptions are good. What helps me is what my elementary/high school band director taught us in like 6th grade--think of the name "Wanda".

 

When you count straight 8ths, you typically count 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and. For swung 8ths, say the name Wanda: Wan-da-2-da-3-da-4-da. The result should be that the first half of the beat is a bit longer than the second half (the "wan" is a bit longer than "da", the "two" is a bit longer than "da", etc.)

 

For a cool song that switches between straight and swing, check out the big band classic "Malaguena" by the Stan Kenton band.

 

Hope this helps.

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Posted

to add to Jasco's explanation, a swing/shuffle piece is written as eighth notes in 4/4 even though it's played more like one quarter followed by one one eighth in 6/8.

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I'm not exactly sure...but to me it seems the first couple measures of the riff at 2:30 of opeth's "heir apparent" has a little swing and the rest of the riff is sraight.

 

The drum fill right before the riff starts has a little swing to it also.

 

I couldn't find a studio version on the net...but here it is at 1:55 the drum fill happens:

 

zXi0QpbduGM

 

 

 

maybe in this case its more of tiplets vs. 16th that gives it kind of a swing feel.

 

Edit:

 

after thinking about it I think what makes the first part of that riff sound a little like swing is the emphasis on the first note of each triplet. The rest of the riff is in triplets, but the first note of each triplet is not as emphasized in that part of the riff.

 

Thats a big part of swing - emphasizing the first note in each group...like swing 8ths the downbeats are emphasized.

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Posted

jtswing.gif

 

the third example on the left is how i understand swing feel, and a swing piece will have that triplet-tied example at the top usually to indicate it.

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Posted

 

It should be noted that as things speed up, that Yada yada yada feel moves in past the triplet zone and closer to straight 8ths or 16ths.

 

 

Yes, and at that point the swing feel is dileaneated more by where you place your accents in the line you are playing.

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Posted

 

It should be noted that as things speed up, that Yada yada yada feel moves in past the triplet zone and closer to straight 8ths or 16ths.

 

 

It was.

 

 

 

...the notes should tend to slide a little bit more towards straight eighths...

 

 

But I'm glad you agree with me.

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Posted

 


Thats a big part of swing - emphasizing the first note in each group...like swing 8ths the downbeats are emphasized.


 

 

My opinion is just the opposite. I generally think swing grooves more if one accents the offbeats.

 

do-BA-do-BA-do-BA-do-BA-do-BA-do-BA-do-BA-do-BA

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Posted

 

It was.

 

 

Sorry missed it. I was correcting my own omission more than anything.

 

Riovine has a good point about the quality of figure taking precedence as the tempo increases. And once you have rests involved you can have hits land on the triplet divisions or shift entire phrases by any increment that feels right.

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