Members V-man Posted January 28, 2009 Members Posted January 28, 2009 "Retread", not "retard", but I suppose I have my moments Hey all... I am re-learning everything from years back when I played and have dedicated a portion of the week's practice to the C nat minor scale. 1. when playing a scale where you engage 1st fret, 3rd, and 5th on a string (this is C nat minor Type III, BTW), do you go index finger (1), stretch the hell out of the middle finger (3), and pinky (5) or do you go index (1), ring (3), and stretch the hell out of the pinky (5)? I am trying to re-train my fingers for efficiency. 2. The scale book places the "C nat minor Type I" midway on the fretboard (8th fret IIRC), Type II further down (11th fret IIRC), type III all the way back up to the first fret... etc. How did "they" arrive at where to put type I, II, III, etc? Is there some purposeful way of decoding where Type I might naturally start for each scale/note, or was this just some arbitrary designation? Thanks!
Poparad Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 "Retread", not "retard", but I suppose I have my moments Hey all... I am re-learning everything from years back when I played and have dedicated a portion of the week's practice to the C nat minor scale. 1. when playing a scale where you engage 1st fret, 3rd, and 5th on a string (this is C nat minor Type III, BTW), do you go index finger (1), stretch the hell out of the middle finger (3), and pinky (5) or do you go index (1), ring (3), and stretch the hell out of the pinky (5)? I am trying to re-train my fingers for efficiency. Both fingerings are common, more so the first I M P option. This is the way I do it, but other people use the I R P approach. Whichever is more comfortable for you, pick that and work on that one. 2. The scale book places the "C nat minor Type I" midway on the fretboard (8th fret IIRC), Type II further down (11th fret IIRC), type III all the way back up to the first fret... etc. How did "they" arrive at where to put type I, II, III, etc? Is there some purposeful way of decoding where Type I might naturally start for each scale/note, or was this just some arbitrary designation? Thanks! The first position they chose to label as Type I was the position that has the note C as the lowest scale. Since C is the first note of the C minor scale, calling that position the first one is logical, though any one position isn't really "the first one" any more than any other one is. They just chose to call it that for ease of reference.The next position up the fretboard is then Type II, after that, Type III, and so on. The reason why Type III in your book jumps down to the first fret is because at some point, if you keep going up the fretboard you'll either run out of frets, or just end up in an uncomfortable place to work on the scale, so they moved it down an octave (12 frets lower) to use a more practical area of the fretboard.
Moderators Jed Posted January 29, 2009 Moderators Posted January 29, 2009 It sounds like your talking about the scale forms from "A modern Method For Guitar" by WLeavitt? I'm not familiar with the fingering type designations. i use the same forms but describe / name them differently. In general these "Positional Major Scale Fingerings" (aka the "Berklee Forms") are played such that the first finger covers two frets, the middle finger plays the one fret, the ring finger plays one fret (always adjacent to the fret for the middle finger) and the little finger covers two frets. For any one form there may be a 1st finger stretch or a 4th finger stretch but not both. The C (natural) minor scale in first position (your question #1) is played with a 4th finger stretch. The first finger plays only the 1st fret, the middle finger plays only the 2nd fret, the 3rd finger plays only the 3rd fret and the little finger covers both the 4th and 5th frets. Edit: Alternatively, this could be fingered with 1st finger stretches (in 2nd position) but in this case there would be a total of 5 first finger stretches compared to the 2 fourth finger stretches in my preferred fingering above. Attached is a pdf the illustrates the forms and the fingerings (albeit with different names / designations). There are seven scale forms (one starting on each note of the 7-note scale). I'd recommend learning the forms in one key (like C major) and concentrating on the note names and the locations of the root note / tonic (the "C" notes). Over time, you'll start to associate each form with its unique arrangement of scale degrees I just found my copy of those fingering patterns (in Vol 3). I'll sort out how their "Fingering Types" match up with the fingering numbers that I use. cheers,
Moderators Jed Posted January 29, 2009 Moderators Posted January 29, 2009 I just went through "A Modern Method For Guitar" Vol 3, page 27, which lists all the finger forms (12 forms for the 12 possible positions) for the C major scale. The following is how those finger "types" relate to the "positional scale forms" that I posted earlier. MM Type 1 = Pos form #4 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 4B = a 4th finger stretch variation of Pos form #5 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 1B = Pos form #5 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 4 = Pos form #6 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 1D = a 1st finger stretch variation of Pos form #6 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 2 = Pos form #7 (no stretches)MM Type 4C = a 4th finger stretch variation of Pos form #1 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 1A = Pos form #1 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 4A = Pos form #2 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 1C = a 1st finger stretch variation of Pos form #2 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 3 = Pos form #3 (no stretches) Type 4D = I have no idea, but it has both 1st finger and 4th finger stretches - ugh! Honestly their designation system for the fingering forms never made sense to me, so I developed my own naming scheme for the 7 of the 13 forms that made the most sense to me. In my system the form is named according to the scale degree of the lowest note in the form based on the major scale. Volume 3 explains how the naming scheme was developed, but for the life of me I can't see how the other 5 forms (4B, 1D, 4C, 1C and 4D) make any sense in practical application. It's just a bit too "never play out of position" for me. FWIW, all their "Type 1" forms feature 1st finger stretches, while all the "Type 4" forms feature 4th finger stretches. Type 1 & Type 4 each have five variations. "Type 2" and "Type 3" forms have no stretches and no variations. The forms are named based on the key they define when played in 2nd position, with:Type 1 being - C major in 2nd positionType 1A being - F major in 2nd positionType 1B being - Bb major in 2nd positionType 1C being - Eb major in 2nd positionType 1D being - Ab major in 2nd positionType 2 being - G major in 2nd positionType 3 being - D major in 2nd positionType 4 being - A major in 2nd positionType 4A being - E major in 2nd positionType 4B being - B major in 2nd positionType 4C being - F#/ Gb in 2nd positionType 4D being - C#/Db major in 2nd position cheers,
Members Jasco Posted January 29, 2009 Members Posted January 29, 2009 1. when playing a scale where you engage 1st fret, 3rd, and 5th on a string (this is C nat minor Type III, BTW), do you go index finger (1), stretch the hell out of the middle finger (3), and pinky (5) or do you go index (1), ring (3), and stretch the hell out of the pinky (5)? Another vote for "Both Ways".
Members jonfinn Posted January 29, 2009 Members Posted January 29, 2009 I just went through "A Modern Method For Guitar" Vol 3, page 27, which lists all the finger forms (12 forms for the 12 possible positions) for the C major scale. The following is how those finger "types" relate to the "positional scale forms" that I posted earlier.MM Type 1 = Pos form #4 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 4B = a 4th finger stretch variation of Pos form #5 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 1B = Pos form #5 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 4 = Pos form #6 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 1D = a 1st finger stretch variation of Pos form #6 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 2 = Pos form #7 (no stretches)MM Type 4C = a 4th finger stretch variation of Pos form #1 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 1A = Pos form #1 (1st finger stretch)MM Type 4A = Pos form #2 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 1C = a 1st finger stretch variation of Pos form #2 (4th finger stretch)MM Type 3 = Pos form #3 (no stretches)Type 4D = I have no idea, but it has both 1st finger and 4th finger stretches - ugh!Honestly their designation system for the fingering forms never made sense to me, so I developed my own naming scheme for the 7 of the 13 forms that made the most sense to me. In my system the form is named according to the scale degree of the lowest note in the form based on the major scale.Volume 3 explains how the naming scheme was developed, but for the life of me I can't see how the other 5 forms (4B, 1D, 4C, 1C and 4D) make any sense in practical application. It's just a bit too "never play out of position" for me.FWIW, all their "Type 1" forms feature 1st finger stretches, while all the "Type 4" forms feature 4th finger stretches. Type 1 & Type 4 each have five variations. "Type 2" and "Type 3" forms have no stretches and no variations.The forms are named based on the key they define when played in 2nd position, with:Type 1 being - C major in 2nd positionType 1A being - F major in 2nd positionType 1B being - Bb major in 2nd positionType 1C being - Eb major in 2nd positionType 1D being - Ab major in 2nd positionType 2 being - G major in 2nd positionType 3 being - D major in 2nd positionType 4 being - A major in 2nd positionType 4A being - E major in 2nd positionType 4B being - B major in 2nd positionType 4C being - F#/ Gb in 2nd positionType 4D being - C#/Db major in 2nd positioncheers, I spoke with Bill Leavitt about this issue years ago. He was my teacher when I was a student at Berklee. His take was that if you keep your hand in position it's easier to find the notes w/out looking. The "In position" apporach is very useful for sight reading, but can get in the way when improvising. His system gives 14 (if I remember right) different fingerings for major, minor and harmonic minor scales. I asked how many he actually uses. His answer shocked me, "Oh, maybe two or three." Jon "So... if YOU only use two or three, why then would you make me learn 14?" Bill "Because I'm not arrogant enough to believe that the 2 or 3 that I use are the ones that will work best for you. So in the book, I gave you all of them so you can choose for yourself."
Moderators Jed Posted January 29, 2009 Moderators Posted January 29, 2009 His system gives 14 (if I remember right) different fingerings for major, minor and harmonic minor scales. I asked how many he actually uses. His answer shocked me, "Oh, maybe two or three."Jon "So... if YOU only use two or three, why then would you make me learn 14?"Bill "Because I'm not arrogant enough to believe that the 2 or 3 that I use are the ones that will work best for you. So in the book, I gave you all of them so you can choose for yourself." Jon, Thanks for that. I was having a bit of a crisis last night once I finally understood his system. I've invested significant time into the seven forms (His #'s - 1, 1A, 1B, 2, 3, 4, 4A) but I was starting to wonder if not learning all fourteen forms had been a miscalculation. cheers,
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