Reasons Why I Can't Develop Speed?

[Megatron_69]

I still stress in addition to many things mentioned here......getting your your technique/mechanics worked out early....you can waste a lot of time(years) with flawed technique. Classical technique for the fretting hand and fully develpoing all the left hand fingers. And more importantly the right hand-because many guys never quite get it right. Proper picking from the wrist with little if any elbow involved. And no extra tension. Andreas article on his site is probably the best I've seen over the years......

[Zen Monkey]

I understand I'm never going to be much of a guitarist, and I think a good part of it is that I don't have this sort of time to dedicate to it -- or any -- hobby (I don't make money at guitar; I spend it:cry:). I'm wondering what sort of practice time is prevalent for people with regular jobs, a spouse, and kids.

Since I have all of those prerequisites, I thought I'd comment

I probably have a total of three hours a day to pursue my interests trading some sleep for this time (most of this is after everyone else is asleep). I doubt my average is above an hour a day for guitar since I have other instruments to practice and things to do. This is enough time, though where I see significant improvement over a period of months. I don't get too impatient with things unless I'm not making progress on something over 6 mos or so... since that means I'm probably doing something wrong

Also to MegaTron69: "proper" picking does not mean picking from the wrist. Some professional shred-quality guitarists pick from the wrist, some people pick from the arm. I know from the guitarists that I've known personally that it can be done in the 1000 notes per minute range (sextuplets at 160+) with either technique.

[Jasco]

Classical technique for the fretting hand and fully develpoing all the left hand fingers.

Tell that to Django.

Proper picking from the wrist with little if any elbow involved.

Tell that to Steve Morse.

Andreas article on his site is probably the best I've seen over the years......

Got a link?

[Orbit]

Tell that to Django. Tell that to Steve Morse. Got a link?

Steve Morse is not a good example of technique.

[aliensporebomb]

 

Steve Morse is not a good example of technique.

 

 

Not? Compared with whom?

 

That's interesting considering he can flatpick at high speeds, fingerpick

three parts at once, perform classical fingerstyle technique and can

perform in the rock, jazz, country, and classical idioms.

 

Not many people have the level of technique Mr. Morse has.

 

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Some classical fingerstyle from Mr. Morse.

 

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Tumeni Notes

 

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Another take of Tumeni with just Steve and a bassist so you can hear the notes a little clearer

 

An old Dregs tune with some Chicken picken'

 

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An acoustic steel string fingerstyle piece with Rik Emmett:

 

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[Knottyhed]

Shawn Lane, the shredders shredder talks about speed. I think this is VERY insightful. In my own experience, I started playing guitar in 1978. Speed came but without control. The control came later. Check Shawn's advice here and see if it works for you.

 

 

True, I definately developed speed before control, but that was because I was a dick and didn't see that groove, timing, melody and playing what you mean to play is more important. I think most people when they say they can't play fast, actually mean that they can't play anything that sounds good or is in time fast... for me I wasn't able to actually use my speed in a musical situation until i started focusing on everything but speed.

[Orbit]

Guthrie and Phil Keaggy both perform at and above his level WITHOUT carpal tunnel in both hands, surely if he had good technique he wouldn't have developed either of those ?

[Megatron_69]

Tell that to Django. Tell that to Steve Morse. Got a link?

 

:-)

 

It's interesting you mention Django.....him and Tony Iommi are the 2 I bring up over the years when I've worked with students that are trying to overcome a disability of some sort.

 

As far as Morse...(I think he has great technique) the bulk of his picking comes from wrist oscillation and forearm rotation and not directly from the elbow. If his elbow is involved it's minimal. Some elbow movement can work but for single note lines I believe the wrist and for bigger movements wrist/forearm rotation are best....that's how I advise my students. I was a huge Vinnie Moore fan back in the day.....in the 80's he was one of my favorites......probably the best 'elbow picker' I've heard....I modeled a lot of my early technique and practice from him(and Parkening). He even switced to wrist picking after many years...he might of been having problems with his elbow. Lot of guys have this happen......most guys I've seen who pick from the elbow are usually real stiff players and can tremelo pick fast but aren't real clean working through all the strings.

 

Lane and Benson are 2 perfect examples of players that utilize wrist oscillation...I use this as well but I'm not double jointed like these guys so it looks a little different.

 

I also know there are great players who don't use a classical left hand technique.....Django for obvious reasons(although we don't know for sure what he did before his injury), ...Hendrix and Paul Gilbert come to mind.

 

I know there are obvious exceptions but I usually show students classical left hand technique.....because for 'most' people I think it helpful and gets fantastic results.....sometimes for bends, vibrato and other instances you'll move away from that but when a difficult run or passage comes they'll have the skills. I show them what to do to maximize all there digits and their extension.

 

That article you were asking about is on TuckandPatti.com

[aliensporebomb]

Guthrie and Phil Keaggy both perform at and above his level WITHOUT carpal tunnel in both hands, surely if he had good technique he wouldn't have developed either of those ?

 

I agree with your assessment that Guthrie Govan and Phil Keaggy are

superlative players but Morse's carpal tunnel are due to several issues:

 

(1) obsessive practicing to the exclusion of all else. Morse is famous for his "always has a guitar in his hands" work ethic whereas both Govan and Keaggy are reportedly more balanced in their approach despite their high levels of technique.

 

(2) Morse did make a practice of anchoring his picking hand on the bridge of the instrument which possibly contributed to this problem. He's been quoted in interviews as saying if he had started over he would have had the "floating right hand" approach. Getting stuck in one type of picking approach is hard to unlearn.

 

My own approach was to float my hand over the strings near the bridge and to use my right hand pinky to help stabilize my hand during faster passages - I've heard Yngwie Malmsteen has used this approach at times.

 

(3) Despite his youthful looks, Morse is 55 years old. Yes, it's true.

 

Govan is a youthful 38. Keaggy on the other hand is 58 years old - pushing retirement age but still playing great IMHO. "When 55 years old you be, your hands will not be quite so youthful" to paraphrase Yoda.

 

I suspect some of Morse's issues also relate to natural changes in the musculature due to aging. He still plays well but face it, Lance Armstrong isn't going to be racing in the Tour de France when he's 55.

 

IMHO? Better tendonitis than tinnutis. They both kind of stink. But I'd rather avoid either.

[Orbit]

I agree with your assessment that Guthrie Govan and Phil Keaggy are superlative players but Morse's carpal tunnel are due to several issues: (1) obsessive practicing to the exclusion of all else. Morse is famous for his "always has a guitar in his hands" work ethic whereas both Govan and Keaggy are reportedly more balanced in their approach despite their high levels of technique. (2) Morse did make a practice of anchoring his picking hand on the bridge of the instrument which possibly contributed to this problem. He's been quoted in interviews as saying if he had started over he would have had the "floating right hand" approach. Getting stuck in one type of picking approach is hard to unlearn. My own approach was to float my hand over the strings near the bridge and to use my right hand pinky to help stabilize my hand during faster passages - I've heard Yngwie Malmsteen has used this approach at times. (3) Despite his youthful looks, Morse is 55 years old. Yes, it's true. Govan is a youthful 38. Keaggy on the other hand is 58 years old - pushing retirement age but still playing great IMHO. "When 55 years old you be, your hands will not be quite so youthful" to paraphrase Yoda. I suspect some of Morse's issues also relate to natural changes in the musculature due to aging. He still plays well but face it, Lance Armstrong isn't going to be racing in the Tour de France when he's 55. IMHO? Better tendonitis than tinnutis. They both kind of stink. But I'd rather avoid either.

Morse has got insane chops, I'll give him that, but chops and technique are different monsters.

I hate when people recommend him and Trooch as great alternate pickers, when both of them ESPECIALLY Trooch have so much tension when picking

[girevik]

Trooch have so much tension when picking

Never heard of him

[aliensporebomb]

Am I right in thinking Trooch = "John Petrucci". (pe-TROOCH-chi?)

Not my favorite and his best playing isn't even on his own groups or even a solo recording!

 

Try John McLaughlin for interesting alternate picking. But he does other types too.

 

For work with a flatpick: Robert Fripp. That guy is a monster.

Check out FracKtured. Hellacious. Technically, cross-picking.

But, the man is a monster with a flatpick.

 

Shawn Lane was probably the most efficient with a pick I've ever seen.

[Orbit]

Am I right in thinking Trooch = "John Petrucci". (pe-TROOCH-chi?) Not my favorite and his best playing isn't even on his own groups or even a solo recording! Try John McLaughlin for interesting alternate picking. But he does other types too. For work with a flatpick: Robert Fripp. That guy is a monster. Check out FracKtured. Hellacious. Technically, cross-picking. But, the man is a monster with a flatpick. Shawn Lane was probably the most efficient with a pick I've ever seen.

 

 

Finally, someone realizes Fripp's amazing alternate picking, the guys kind of like a Prog-ish McLaughlin.

[girevik]

One of Fripp's Guitar Craft students likes to say "learn and practice Bach Violin Sonatas" in response to anyone asking how to shred on guitar. He must have got it from Fripp.

Some Fripp neoclassical shred circa 1968:

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[Ed Jalowiecki]

Lane and Benson are 2 perfect examples of players that utilize wrist oscillation...I use this as well but I'm not double jointed like these guys so it looks a little different. I also know there are great players who don't use a classical left hand technique.....Django for obvious reasons(although we don't know for sure what he did before his injury), ...Hendrix and Paul Gilbert come to mind. I know there are obvious exceptions but I usually show students classical left hand technique.....because for 'most' people I think it helpful and gets fantastic results.....sometimes for bends, vibrato and other instances you'll move away from that but when a difficult run or passage comes they'll have the skills. I show them what to do to maximize all there digits and their extension.

 

 

I'm not familiar with the "wrist oscillation" technique. Do you know any good articles/videos describing it?

 

Also, I think classical left hand technique suits players with average to smaller size hands. For me, it can be uncomfortable to use for extended periods. Look at big-handed players like Wes Montgomery & Tal Farlow and see where their left hand falls on the guitar. When it comes to technique, I don't think it's always "one size fits all".

[Megatron_69]

check it out on tuckandpatti.com



I agree....onesize never fits all......we're all put together a little differently. But there are a lot of basic things that most players can benefit from......ie economy of motion.

[Orbit]

I'm not familiar with the "wrist oscillation" technique. Do you know any good articles/videos describing it? Also, I think classical left hand technique suits players with average to smaller size hands. For me, it can be uncomfortable to use for extended periods. Look at big-handed players like Wes Montgomery & Tal Farlow and see where their left hand falls on the guitar. When it comes to technique, I don't think it's always "one size fits all".

Don't even get me started on oscillatory motion

[Megatron_69]

Bwahaha!

[Ed Jalowiecki]

check it out on tuckandpatti.com

 

 

Thanks for the link. I'm trying to employ the technique now, but I'll have to study some more Benson videos to get it down. Looks to me like John Sykes may be doing something similar:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5OUxD2QmwQ

[girevik]

 

I'm not familiar with the "wrist oscillation" technique. Do you know any good articles/videos describing it?

 

 

Dunno if it's what anyone would call "oscillation" but here's one guy's explanation at around 3:40 into the video, involving a cup of liquid and a spoon/knife:

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

 

One of his students was Brian Carroll/Buckethead. More explanation:

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[Ed Jalowiecki]

Dunno if it's what anyone would call "oscillation" but here's one guy's explanation at around 3:40 into the video, involving a cup of liquid and a spoon/knife:

 

 

Cool, thanks for the videos. I like the explanation he gives with the cup of water - it really gives you an idea of how the motion is supposed to feel. Tuck's written explanation is pretty in depth, but I found it confusing without pictures or other references. Plus, videos don't generally tell you how a technique feels, so actually this guy is pretty good & funny too.

 

Are his other instructional videos worth checking out?

[jonPhillips]

...but face it, Lance Armstrong isn't going to be racing in the Tour de France when he's 55.

I wouldn't necessarily bet against this...

[Bajazz]

Some people can play really fast. Some can't. Some people can run fast. Some can't Some can throw a baseball 95mph. Some can't. Michael Angelo Batio says he was always fast. Even when he was a kid. . . . . Some people can sing and some can't sing for beans. All the singing lessons in the world will not make you a great singer if you haven't got the pipes to begin with.

I think this is wrong. No one can really be good at something unless they work at it a lot. Those that can't are those that quit or practice wrong. Or too little... or to little focused... and worry bout getting it etc.....

 

There are lot's of examples where people have broken barriers after trying a new method, book, DVD, a new teacher etc.... I bet we all have sudden moments when everything changes and you look at things from a totally new perspective. From then you continue learning at a new speed.

 

... Until you again fall into a rut... :-( This is where most of us tend to do most of our times. We don't see that we are banging our head against a wall we should try to climb. You can advance a bit, and sometimes you fall back. But mostly you are stuck on a certain level. This is the same for everyone, and happens on all levels, even for the awesome dudes! When a certain approach doesn't work, it is unwise in keeping repeating it...

 

I'm not saying to throw away everything you know, all your routines, excercises etc... I'm saying that you need to constantly be critrical to the way you work, and learn to observe and measure progress. Look for better ways all the time.

 

It's ALL in our mind!!

[1001gear]

Generally speaking, music will accommodate a wide range of genetics but even if all are ultimately capable, accomplishment - even through hyper optimized routines, still has to happen over time. And when aptitude drops off, so will performance.

[girevik]

 

Cool, thanks for the videos. I like the explanation he gives with the cup of water - it really gives you an idea of how the motion is supposed to feel. Tuck's written explanation is pretty in depth, but I found it confusing without pictures or other references. Plus, videos don't generally tell you how a technique feels, so actually this guy is pretty good & funny too. Are his other instructional videos worth checking out?

 

 

He's got a good explanation of sweep picking in another vid, and the earlier vids of the Picking Concepts series is good.

 

I haven't seen his other videos yet.

 

BTW, I find the Dunlop Eric Johnson picks that I've been using have such a small point that I'm not really forced into using a good angle for Pebber's approach, which is using the edge of the pick rather than the face of the pick. For learning purposes, a more "normal" pick like the Fender shape works better for me.