Members atl123 Posted April 10, 2009 Members Posted April 10, 2009 Both types of music make extensive use of the major, minor scales (and the penatonics). Obviously hard rock music has way more distortion in general and have more speed in its licks. What are some of the other stylistic differences? I tought myself how to play lead with a more blues based approach to soloing (think SRV, southern rock (Skynyrd, Allman Brothers), Robben Ford, etc.) I have the speed to play hard rock licks, but when I am just jamming and improving I have never seem to be able to capture that sound and feel. It always sounds too bluesy and not aggressive enough. I think that with the blues based approach, you get used to only needing to use a few notes to get where you are going; where as with the hard rock approach you need much longer runs before a stop, accent, or pause. Is this true? It seems rock makes use of sequences much more. Help me think of some other differences between the two styles.
Members Darkman Posted April 10, 2009 Members Posted April 10, 2009 One obvious difference between the techniques is blues playing usually means two notes per string (2nps) and modern rock tends to use 3nps. With alternate picking, 3nps makes speed a lot easier and also completely changes the "sound" of a solo.I'm going through the same process you describe here actually. I've played blues rock so long I couldn't do anything else. Re-training myself and learning a whole new style has re-ignited my interest in playing guitar.btw I'm new to this board, but not new to music
Members jonPhillips Posted April 10, 2009 Members Posted April 10, 2009 I'm new to this board, but not new to music Welcome to the Lesson Loft
Members atl123 Posted April 10, 2009 Author Members Posted April 10, 2009 One obvious difference between the techniques is blues playing usually means two notes per string (2nps) and modern rock tends to use 3nps. With alternate picking, 3nps makes speed a lot easier and also completely changes the "sound" of a solo. I'm going through the same process you describe here actually. I've played blues rock so long I couldn't do anything else. Re-training myself and learning a whole new style has re-ignited my interest in playing guitar. btw I'm new to this board, but not new to music I agree, good observation.
Members halfwhole Posted April 11, 2009 Members Posted April 11, 2009 well, how did you learn to play blues? probably by copying and playing along with tunes. do the same for rock?
Members mosiddiqi Posted April 11, 2009 Members Posted April 11, 2009 Yep, 3NPS and learn some hard rock solo's....if you can learn a few Michael Schenker solo's from UFO's "Strangers in the Night" album...you'll have a great bunch of licks to develop yourself. Also, add in some classic Jimmy Page and Ritchie Blackmore solo's and you're good to go. IMO, Page is a model for pentatonic/blues, Blackmore likewise for phrygian/harmonic minor...and Schenker kind of ties it all together with added dorian goodness!!...
Members jonfinn Posted April 11, 2009 Members Posted April 11, 2009 Both types of music make extensive use of the major, minor scales (and the penatonics). Obviously hard rock music has way more distortion in general and have more speed in its licks.What are some of the other stylistic differences?I tought myself how to play lead with a more blues based approach to soloing (think SRV, southern rock (Skynyrd, Allman Brothers), Robben Ford, etc.)I have the speed to play hard rock licks, but when I am just jamming and improving I have never seem to be able to capture that sound and feel. It always sounds too bluesy and not aggressive enough.I think that with the blues based approach, you get used to only needing to use a few notes to get where you are going; where as with the hard rock approach you need much longer runs before a stop, accent, or pause. Is this true? It seems rock makes use of sequences much more. Help me think of some other differences between the two styles. You answered part of your own question I think. When you described yourself, you said "This SRV, Skynyrd etc." but when you talked about the hard rock stuff, you talked in terms of techniques. This is only a suggestion:Approach hard rock stuff in exactly the way you learned the blues stuff. F'rinstance, what hard rock artists do you want to emulate (not necessarily imitate)?
Members Darkman Posted April 12, 2009 Members Posted April 12, 2009 Something I'm working on to make the transition is familiarise myself with 3nps box positions in each common key. So far I've found this surprisingly difficult, maybe because old habits die hard. I'm getting round it now by linking them to the old 2nps positions. Since I know where "box 1" pentatonic is straight away, I can find a 3nps box much faster if I think of it as right next to this box 1, or within it somewhere. Know what I mean?Once you feel comfortable knowing where your position is, you can jump to it and are more likely to use it of course. And thanks to those who pointed out that we need to learn some actual licks note for note, just like we did when we started out. So far I had just concentrated on scales, and forgot I need to get some real licks from somewhere too!
Members jeremy_green Posted April 13, 2009 Members Posted April 13, 2009 My opinion - Pull some Randy Rhoads stuff. Metal/classical started there. Tasty too!
Members atl123 Posted April 14, 2009 Author Members Posted April 14, 2009 Thanks for the responses everybody. Looks like several other people are in my shoes also. Basically what I got so far was to concentrate on learning the 3nps fingering patterns for the most used scales/modes (minor, harmonic minor, and phygarian). And then to also spend more time seeing how Page, Blackmore, and Rhoads applied this. Probably throw in a little Zakk Wylde while I am at it. (Would love to throw in some Petrucci, but I am being realistic knowing that his stuff is way too hard.) The funny thing is, I have learned many a rock songs over the years (including Page), but when it gets time to improv I always resort back to my bluesy style (even when we are really jamming hard). This is mainly because everybody always does what is most comfortable to them, and I always see those 2 nps boxes during an improv like Darkman said he does also. Any other tips or ideas for myself or anybody else on here?
Members shredhead7 Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 As mentioned earlier, Schenker is a great cross over point for you. Rhodes just took what Schenker was doing and added a little LA flash to it. Schenker's approach is mostly minor pentatonic, with the added blues notes as passing tones. He will also mix in minor scale (aeolian mode), which sits over the top of the minor pent pattern (the first scale that everyone learns), so you can go back and forth between the two without a position shift. He usually starts on the root minor chord with the minor pent, so if the song is in Em, just play your min pent box shape at the twelfth fret. Start off with a Page 15th fret B string bend into the 12th fret E string pattern (Stairway to Heaven solo), then descend down the scale. Throw in some passing blue notes Bb and you're on your way. Ascending, use the Emin scale and when you reach the G on the high E, shift that up into the same min pent box pattern, but in 17th fret position and start over. The only difference here, is that now you'll use the Dorian mode (which is still just Gmaj/Emin, just in a different fingering). Those are the two most common moves he makes and almost every one of his solos revolves around those two positions. Pretty amazing really, when each one of his solo's sings so melodically, yet unique.
Members shredhead7 Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 If you want to sound a little more LA, George Lynch lands almost every run on a flat 5 or a flatted 3rd. So again, in Em, play the Em pent pattern and end it on the 13th fret of the G string (which is also the raised 7th in the A min scale in the same position, which makes that the harmonic minor). Another quick LA sound, is using Eddie and Georges pick grip. In a word, it is holding the pick really close to the tip, and picking a little more from the wrist, almost like you are using a feather duster and dusting off the top of your strings. Try holding the pick between the pad of your index finger and the pad of your thumb, as opposed to holding it like a pencil on the side of your index finger. Doing it this way, you will notice that you get slight artificial harmonics on almost every pick. The reason for this is that your index fingers nail is striking the string just before the pick tip is. This will give you the attack of George, Eddie and Warren really quickly. One last little tip, I know you didn't mention Eddie, but as he is the definition of LA (hard rock guitar). His solo's are almost exclusively the pentatonic scale. The only time he deviates is when he does a quick legato run (as in I'm the One; which should be required learning). These runs, while sounding difficult, are actually pretty easy. He does the same fingering on every string, without regard to key or scale. That finger pattern is: on the A string 6, 7, 9, the d string 6, 7, 9, the g string 6, 7, 9, the b string 6, 7, 9, the high e string, 6, 7, 9. Pick only the first note and play as triplets, so it's really easy to play fast and in time with the song. You can repeat the patters, so play A string to D string, then D string to G, G to B etc; so you double up every strings pattern. This is what Petrucci and Gilbert do all the time (doubling up the 3nps triplet patterns to get speed). As for Eddies little gem of a pattern, the second note on the A string, in my example the note is E. This is important as it is really the root of the scale. Eddie uses this in I'm The One (key of Em) at the 6th, 11th and 16th positions. Which means, he is playing E, A, and D respectively. Use this for your own playing for a quick 3nps that works in almost every situation.
Members Darkman Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 These runs, while sounding difficult, are actually pretty easy. He does the same fingering on every string, without regard to key or scale. I don't get that though. I get that it sounds good when he plays it, but he's going right out of key?? Is it that at high speeds it takes on an almost chromatic effect, simply ascending in a general direction? I've not noticed Gilbert or Petrucci etc actually leaving the key much except for chromatics.
Members 1001gear Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 It's a kind of a low res psyco acoustics. The ear will ignore the 'ugly' notes as long as the lines have harmonic content. That and distortion is a kind of universal reharmonizer.
Members shredhead7 Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 I don't get that though. I get that it sounds good when he plays it, but he's going right out of key?? Is it that at high speeds it takes on an almost chromatic effect, simply ascending in a general direction? I've not noticed Gilbert or Petrucci etc actually leaving the key much except for chromatics. It does go right out of key, but at high speeds, they are more like passing tones (chromatic in a sense). However, using his pattern, the first note on each string is out of key, but the other two are part of the pentatonic/blues scale. In reality, if you play every single note chromatically, there are only two notes that won't work over any major/minor chord. Sure, some will sound a lot better than others, but the "others" are the blue notes and are great for passing tones. Youtube Paul Gilbert for a better explanation (he mapped it all out and created a huge scale for this). Gilbert and Petrucci do play diatonically (in key, within the scale), but repeating the patterns in triplets is where I was coming from. Meaning, (on A string) E F# G, (on D string) A B C, A B C, (on G string) D E F#, D E F#, (on B string) G A B, etc...
Members halfwhole Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 I don't get that though. I get that it sounds good when he plays it, but he's going right out of key?? Is it that at high speeds it takes on an almost chromatic effect, simply ascending in a general direction? I've not noticed Gilbert or Petrucci etc actually leaving the key much except for chromatics. aint nothing wrong with going out of key or doing symmetrical finger stuff, {censored} the blues scale is pretty out of key in relation to blues harmony. just make sure the line is very strong melodic and you don't stay on the out notes for too long. a few other things to think about could be faster phrasing and a wider, quicker vibrato
Members Jasco Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 What are some of the other stylistic differences? Play faster. Play louder. Use more distortion and other effects.
Members Darkman Posted April 14, 2009 Members Posted April 14, 2009 When I play that Van Halen run it sounds horrible. Must be my interpretation Maybe timing has a lot to do with it. Play almost any notes, as long at the rhythm makes sense? Just a thought...
Members BROLEX Posted April 15, 2009 Members Posted April 15, 2009 its too easy to get stuck in the blues rut. i suggest you quit.
Members Yngtchie Blacksteen Posted April 15, 2009 Members Posted April 15, 2009 When playing scales with 'wrong' notes, the trick to making them work is to emphasize the 'right' notes and not dwell on the 'wrong' notes for too long. Listen to Steve Morse and the way he uses chromatic runs. Many of those notes aren't in key with the song, but he only uses them as passing notes, notes that he'll visit on his way to the desired notes of the scale. It's also got a lot to do with attitude. An amateur usually doesn't sound very confident, and when he or she launches into a solo with a lot of notes that are outside the scale, it can sound pretty bad. A really good guitarist like EVH can make those notes sound good because he plays them with tons of conviction. Eddie is one of the best examples of an unschooled player who makes things work because of his great natural feel.
Members shredhead7 Posted April 15, 2009 Members Posted April 15, 2009 It's also got a lot to do with attitude. An amateur usually doesn't sound very confident, and when he or she launches into a solo with a lot of notes that are outside the scale, it can sound pretty bad. A really good guitarist like EVH can make those notes sound good because he plays them with tons of conviction. Eddie is one of the best examples of an unschooled player who makes things work because of his great natural feel. Agreed. When I was 15 I was a huge Cacophony fan. I got the Marty Friedman instructional, the first one and proceeded to A: be amazed at how stoned he was in the video and B: be upset that I couldn't play an outside note with a reverse bend and make it sound like anything other than a cat dying a slow and painful death. Fast forward 20 years and it is second nature. The difference is that my ears are better, my timing (as referenced by Darkman) is better, and my attitude and conviction in my playing is better.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.