Members vintagevibes Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 I have several books for learning modes on guitar but there are many fingerings. Can anyone suggest the "best" or most usable fingerings for scales so I can get a jump on them?
Moderators Jed Posted April 30, 2009 Moderators Posted April 30, 2009 I have several books for learning modes on guitar but there are many fingerings. Can anyone suggest the "best" or most usable fingerings for scales so I can get a jump on them? At the risk of offending you . . . You would be better served by learning the various major scale fingerings. Skip the whole concept of modes until after you know the major scales in terms of fingerings of the various major scale forms and in terms of actual notes and note names / locations. The whole study of modes is a black hole of confusion unless and until you know your major scales in most if not all keys. The attached will show you one way to approach learning the various major scale fingerings. cheers,
Members Jasco Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 You would be better served by learning the various major scale fingerings. Skip the whole concept of modes until after you know the major scales in terms of fingerings of the various major scale forms and in terms of actual notes and note names / locations.
Members vintagevibes Posted April 30, 2009 Author Members Posted April 30, 2009 I have several books for learning modes on guitar but there are many fingerings. Can anyone suggest the "best" or most usable fingerings for scales so I can get a jump on them? I have a degree in music (percussion) and know my major scales. I'm looking for favorite fingerings for modes of the major scales on guitar.
Members Jasco Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 I have a degree in music (percussion) and know my major scales. I'm looking for favorite fingerings for modes of the major scales on guitar. If you know your major scale patterns on guitar then you also already know your patterns for modes. They are exactly the same. I'm suprised you didn't learn this while getting your degree in music. Let's apply it to piano for a moment. What is the fingering pattern for a C major scale? All the white keys What about an A minor scale (A aeolian)? All the white keys What about D dorian? All the white keys E phrygian? All the white keys F lydian? All the white keys G mixolydian? All the white keys B locrian? All the white keys The modes of a major scale have the exact same notes as the 'parent' major scale, and hence have the exact same fingering pattern. I hope that helps.
Members Virgman Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 You can play any of the modes from any position on the guitar. The guitar is very pattern/shape oriented. 1) Take any of the major scale fingerings you know. 2) For the particular mode you want to play, take the scale pattern/shape you know, start on the modal note in the position you are in. Continue up the scale as far necessary. If you are in the key of C and want to play Dorian mode, find the D note and play up or down the scale from there. You will find certain fingerings more useful for certain genres of music. Metal uses 3nps patterns. Jazz more the traditional box patterns. I agree with Jed and Jasco. Learn the major scale fingering patterns if you don't already know them. You learn 7 patterns. Learn to play them forwards and backwards. Learn the diatonic triad arpeggios inside the patterns.
Members girevik Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 I bought Jimmy Bruno's "useful fingerings" book and realized they were most useful for him, not necessarily for me. We all have different body types and such. Bruno's favorite fingerings are different from Allan Holdsworth's, which in turn is different from Paul Gilbert's. I abandoned my favorite fingerings once I changed my approach to studying and prepping for improv - it's now based on ear training, taking ideas from the greats, and thinking like a composer rather than the chord-scale approach. Why not just give Jed's PDF a try and see if it works for you? You can also try halfnote's idea of playing the mode one string at a time, going up and down the length of the fretboard.
Members Virgman Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 I bought Jimmy Bruno's "useful fingerings" book and realized they were most useful for him, not necessarily for me.We all have different body types and such. Bruno's favorite fingerings are different from Allan Holdsworth's, which in turn is different from Paul Gilbert's. I abandoned my favorite fingerings once I changed my approach to studying and prepping for improv - it's now based on ear training, taking ideas from the greats, and thinking like a composer rather than the chord-scale approach.Why not just give Jed's PDF a try and see if it works for you? You can also try halfnote's idea of playing the mode one string at a time, going up and down the length of the fretboard. Bruno's fingerings are just the familiar box patterns. He has the 5 patterns on his website. Why 5? He plays jazz and he doesn't use the other 2 patterns. He plays over 6-2-5-1 chord changes so he only uses 5 of the 7. But they are standard patterns. His method has it's own madness for sure. However if you learned his "way" you can play.
Members 1001gear Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 If you know your major scale patterns on guitar then you also already know your patterns for modes. They are exactly the same. I'm suprised you didn't learn this while getting your degree in music.Let's apply it to piano for a moment. What is the fingering pattern for a C major scale?All the white keysWhat about an A minor scale (A aeolian)?All the white keysWhat about D dorian? All the white keysE phrygian?All the white keysF lydian?All the white keysG mixolydian?All the white keysB locrian?All the white keysThe modes of a major scale have the exact same notes as the 'parent' major scale, and hence have the exact same fingering pattern.I hope that helps. For various ergonomic, psycho aesthetic, and actual musical (phrasing, inflection, etc...) reasons, pianists have distinct preferred fingerings for different modes.
Members Virgman Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 For various ergonomic, psycho aesthetic, and actual musical (phrasing, inflection, etc...) reasons, pianists have distinct preferred fingerings for different modes. That's one area where I think the piano is more difficult that guitar. Each key is different in fingering with the black and white keys. Now that I read his question again he wants the best "scale" fingerings. The modal thing got me sidetracked. Jed's fingerings are good. I use slightly different one's but his are fine.
Moderators Jed Posted April 30, 2009 Moderators Posted April 30, 2009 I have a degree in music (percussion) and know my major scales. I'm looking for favorite fingerings for modes of the major scales on guitar. Once you look at the pdf, you'll quickly see that two of the fingering forms use only one finger per fret - not surprisingly - these will be the most common of the fingerings in actual use. Other fingerings that require finger stretches (in this system) or positional shifts (in other fingering systems) will be less commonly used - by virtue of the increase in physical dexterity required to play them. In fact since the pdf I posted includes a C major scale fretboard map, you can use it to have a look at alternate ways to finger some of the more physically difficult fingering patterns to find you own "favorites". As a music major (even as a percussionist ) you should know that modes and fingerings have nothing to do with one another. A fingering form defines how something is physically played - a mode describes a harmonic environment. In the guitar world these two things are often confused as being the same thing - but you know better than make that mistake. In percussion you wouldn't confuse a rhythmic pattern with a specific stick pattern. So in scalar / harmonic terms modes don't have fingering patterns. Each mode has many different ways that it could be fingered. Welcome to the Lesson Loft ! The guitar is a great instrument to learn once you already know some theory. cheers,
Members 1001gear Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 That's one area where I think the piano is more difficult that guitar. Each key is different in fingering with the black and white keys. It makes sense on guitar too. Phrasing and all.
Moderators Jed Posted April 30, 2009 Moderators Posted April 30, 2009 Jed's fingerings are good. I use slightly different one's but his are fine. We should compile the most common variations. This is a question that comes up all the time. If you guys give me your common variations I'll put them all together with a fretboard map so that we can provide a more unbiased response to this common question. cheers,
Members vintagevibes Posted April 30, 2009 Author Members Posted April 30, 2009 That's one area where I think the piano is more difficult that guitar. Each key is different in fingering with the black and white keys.Now that I read his question again he wants the best "scale" fingerings. The modal thing got me sidetracked.Jed's fingerings are good. I use slightly different one's but his are fine. I'm not looking for Major scale fingerings - I'm looking for favorite Mode fingerings. Most people who have answered this post are confused about my question so I'll try to restate it. There are mane ways to play scales and modes on the guitar. They include starting on different strings, different fingers, different notes per strings etc... What I am asking is if any quitar players have fingerings/patterns for MODES that they find more useful than others. Jimmy Bruno's "useful fingerings" book sounds like something I would be interested in.
Members vintagevibes Posted April 30, 2009 Author Members Posted April 30, 2009 Once you look at the pdf, you'll quickly see that two of the fingering forms use only one finger per fret - not surprisingly - these will be the most common of the fingerings in actual use. Other fingerings that require finger stretches (in this system) or positional shifts (in other fingering systems) will be less commonly used - by virtue of the increase in physical dexterity required to play them. In fact since the pdf I posted includes a C major scale fretboard map, you can use it to have a look at alternate ways to finger some of the more physically difficult fingering patterns to find you own "favorites". As a music major (even as a percussionist ) you should know that modes and fingerings have nothing to do with one another. A fingering form defines how something is physically played - a mode describes a harmonic environment. In the guitar world these two things are often confused as being the same thing - but you know better than make that mistake. In percussion you wouldn't confuse a rhythmic pattern with a specific stick pattern. So in scalar / harmonic terms modes don't have fingering patterns. Each mode has many different ways that it could be fingered. Welcome to the Lesson Loft ! The guitar is a great instrument to learn once you already know some theory. cheers, You're confuesd about my question. On guitar there are many ways to finger scales/modes etc.... I have my favorite blues, pentatonic, major, minor... fingerings that I use above all others. I'm looking for favorite ones form other people for the modes of the major scale (excluding Ionic).
Members Virgman Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 These are useful fingering's for modes using the familiar box patterns. Jazz players use these types of fingerings. Bruno uses similar fingerings. Notes how all the modes can be played from roughly a 5 fret position. This can be done from any position however. This is the meaning of my prior post. http://www.sirgalahad.org/paul/music/modes/modes.html
Members vintagevibes Posted April 30, 2009 Author Members Posted April 30, 2009 These are useful fingering's for modes using the familiar box patterns. Jazz players use these types of fingerings. Notes how all the modes can be played from roughly a 5 fret position. This can be done from any position. This is the meaning of my prior post. http://www.sirgalahad.org/paul/music/modes/modes.html Thanks Virgman! This is what I was looking for. I like most of these fingerings and I think they would be a good place to start.
Moderators Jed Posted April 30, 2009 Moderators Posted April 30, 2009 You're confuesd about my question. On guitar there are many ways to finger scales/modes etc.... I have my favorite blues, pentatonic, major, minor... fingerings that I use above all others. I'm looking for favorite ones form other people for the modes of the major scale (excluding Ionic). Well I'm still confused. I don't have favorite fingerings for major scales, so I certainly don't have them for modes. I use lot's of different fingerings and move between various fingering patterns all the time. The longer you work the various major scale fingering patterns, the more they start to morph into one large 12-fret pattern. The only thing I can think of to help you in your quest is to consider the 2-octave arpeggios. Some of these lend themselves more easily to comp'ing in and around a particular mode. Even then, for real modal playing it's the phrasing that will drive the choice of fingering rather than anything specific to one of the modes. cheers,
Members vintagevibes Posted April 30, 2009 Author Members Posted April 30, 2009 Well I'm still confused. I don't have favorite fingerings for major scales, so I certainly don't have them for modes. I use lot's of different fingerings and move between various fingering patterns all the time. The longer you work the various major scale fingering patterns, the more they start to morph into one large 12-fret pattern.The only thing I can think of to help you in your quest is to consider the 2-octave arpeggios. Some of these lend themselves more easily to comp'ing in and around a particular mode. Even then, for real modal playing it's the phrasing that will drive the choice of fingering rather than anything specific to one of the modes.cheers, I find that my phrasing is smoother and more interesting depending on which fingering I'm using. It doesn't help that I have short, fat fingers either. That makes some fingerings really uncomfortable for me. Most people may not have that problem. My thought is to get some personal fingering preferences for modes from some other people and use that as a place to start.
Members Virgman Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 Well I'm still confused. I don't have favorite fingerings for major scales, so I certainly don't have them for modes. I use lot's of different fingerings and move between various fingering patterns all the time. The longer you work the various major scale fingering patterns, the more they start to morph into one large 12-fret pattern. The only thing I can think of to help you in your quest is to consider the 2-octave arpeggios. Some of these lend themselves more easily to comp'ing in and around a particular mode. Even then, for real modal playing it's the phrasing that will drive the choice of fingering rather than anything specific to one of the modes. cheers, It's all the same stuff. He just hasn't understood it yet. We are here to bring enlightenment.
Moderators Jed Posted April 30, 2009 Moderators Posted April 30, 2009 http://www.sirgalahad.org/paul/music/modes/modes.html In that link: The patterns for Locrian / Ionian / Dorian is one of the major scale patterns that I recommended (of the two that use just one finger per fret). The patterns for Phrygian / Lydian / Mixolydian is the other one of the major scale patterns that I recommended (of the two that use just one finger per fret). But I'm sure it was me that was confused . . . . cheers,
Moderators Jed Posted April 30, 2009 Moderators Posted April 30, 2009 It's all the same stuff. He just hasn't understood it yet. We are here to bring enlightenment. LOL I think I should get back to work. This is not a good day for me to be wrestling with other people's understanding of music.
Members Virgman Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 You got it, Jed. When I said "It's all the same stuff. He just hasn't understood it yet.", I didn't mean you. I meant the OP. Now, vintagevibes, ask more questions so we can feel needed.
Members jonPhillips Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 We should compile the most common variations. This is a question that comes up all the time. If you guys give me your common variations I'll put them all together with a fretboard map so that we can provide a more unbiased response to this common question. cheers, Shall I send you my C-A-G-E-D fingerings?
Members girevik Posted April 30, 2009 Members Posted April 30, 2009 I find that my phrasing is smoother and more interesting depending on which fingering I'm using. It doesn't help that I have short, fat fingers either. That makes some fingerings really uncomfortable for me. Most people may not have that problem. My thought is to get some personal fingering preferences for modes from some other people and use that as a place to start. If jazz is what you want to play, the finger-first (as opposed to ears-first) approach may be detrimental, depending on the kind of improviser you want to become. If it's something else, maybe not. Brett Garsed has small hands, yet achieves smooth legato phrasing by smoothly shifting his hand about (like Jed, he uses the whole fretboard, not one position at a time) and plenty of ear training.
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