The diminished link between IV and V

[SlaveNewWorld0]

I was playing the following chord progression last night:

 

E Amaj7 Bbdim7 E Bsus9

 

That movement between Amaj7 (IV) and Bbdim7 (??) - it's used a lot in jazz and blues, but could anyone expand on the theory behind that diminished link between the IV and V chord? I just love the sound of it but know it's pretty "old hat" stuff, so it must come from a musical standard of some sort.

 

Any insights appreciated

[jonfinn]

I was playing the following chord progression last night: E Amaj7 Bbdim7 E Bsus9 That movement between Amaj7 (IV) and Bbdim7 (??) - it's used a lot in jazz and blues, but could anyone expand on the theory behind that diminished link between the IV and V chord? I just love the sound of it but know it's pretty "old hat" stuff, so it must come from a musical standard of some sort. Any insights appreciated

 

Yup. One way to look at it is that Bbdim7 (or it's enharmonic equivalent - A#dim7) is a 1st inversion voicing of F#7b9 but without the root.

 

F#7b9 is the V7/V in the key of E... although the b9 borrows from the key of Bmin.

[halfwhole]

i think you can toss a diminished chord in when ever you have two chords whose roots are a whole step apart. All of Me has a thing at the end that goes:

 

Cmaj7 D#dim7 Dmin7 G7

[1001gear]

Jon's pointing out the V/V relationship reminded me that V/V is II - so there's your, what else, ii V I

[gennation]

This two lessons will show you a ton about the 'dim7 approach chord'...as well as substitutions...

 

http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/substitutions-and-the-vim-iim-v-i-progression-part-1-of-2-t3.html

 

and

 

http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/substitutions-and-the-vim-iim-v-i-progression-part-2-of-2-t4.html

 

Let me try this off the top of my head...

 

Here's a fun one where the "dim7 approach chords" are used too...(I made this up for a student of mine to practice jazz voicings)...

 

3/4 time...

 

||: Cmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 | Ebdim7 | Dm7 | Dm7 | Fmaj7#11 | Fdim7 :||

 

Now let's replace those dim7 approach chords with more 'normal' chords...

 

remember...3/4 time...

 

||: Cmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 | Ab7 | Dm7 | Dm7 | Fmaj7#11 | Bb7 :||

 

See how Ab7 and Ebdim7 each work together as well as how Bb7 and Fdim7 both work together too?

 

This is because...

 

The notes of Ebdim7 (Eb Gb A C) enharmonically equal the 5, b7, b9 and M3 Intervals of the Ab7 chord...or actually the Ab7b9 chord. The same goes for Fdim7 and Bb7 or Bb7b9. (this is an example of what jonfinn was explaining)

 

So, you could play the progression as:

 

||: Cmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 | Ab7b9 | Dm7 | Dm7 | Fmaj7#11 | Bb7b9 :||

 

Now you can play this progression three ways...

 

||: Cmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 | Ebdim7 | Dm7 | Dm7 | Fmaj7#11 | Fdim7 :||

||: Cmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 | Ab7 | Dm7 | Dm7 | Fmaj7#11 | Bb7 :||

||: Cmaj7 | Dm7 | Em7 | Ab7b9 | Dm7 | Dm7 | Fmaj7#11 | Bb7b9 :||

 

If you find this stuff cool, you'll DEFINITELY want to work through those links I posted, they'll show you some killer stuff!

 

Beside all the theory of this, the 'sound' you get for these ideas is a sound used in jazz, music in general really, called "forward motion". It exploits the sound of "tension and release". The more you mess with it the more you'll find it's a missing piece to a lot of guitarists arsenal...and once your ears are tuned to it, it's obvious when it's missing in someones playing.

[stomias]

Another thing to consider.........by just raising the root of a IV7 chord you have the IV# dim

[SlaveNewWorld0]

Nice. Will tuck into those lessons over t'weekend.

 

Your post was also very useful!

 

It's interesting - I often use the example you gave where Bb7 would resolve to Cmaj7 tonic, and had noticed that using an F bass note on Bb7b9 essentially creates an Fdim7 chord, but that's really as far as I'd got with linking it all together. I see it much more clearly now! Thanks.

[gennation]

You know, follow me on this one...

 

That Bb7 at the end of the progression I posted sounds exactly like something out of The Peanuts music. Like something Schroeder would play. Listen to the Bb7 resolving to Cmaj7.

 

Who ever wrote the stuff for Schultz' stuff used this idea almost everywhere. Cool sound.

 

SlaveNewWorld0, definitely at least check out that first link I posted. It'll show you what "the other guy" is playing when he sounds dead on.

[2chordwonder]

 

Another thing to consider.........by just raising the root of a IV7 chord you have the IV# dim

 

 

That's how I see(and hear) it too - it's an ascending chromatic bassline.

 

T

[gennation]

Instead of looking at it piece by piece let's look at the big picture...check this out...

 

EVERY Diminished 'scale' has four sets of common, and interchangable, chords in it...

 

If we look at a Bb W-H scale we get: Bb C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

 

Here's the groups of "interchangable" chords in this scale:

 

four dim7 chords = Bbdim7, Dbdim7, Edim7, Gdim7 (each chord is a m3rd apart)

four dom7 chords = A7, C7, Eb7, F#7 (each chord is a m3rd apart)

four m7 chords = Am7, Cm7, Ebm7, F#m7 (each a m3rd apart)

four m7b5 chords = Am7b5, Cm7b5, Ebm7b5, F#m7b5 (each a m3rd apart)

 

And we can't forget about the Major and Minor triads from those chords either:

 

four Major triads = A, C, Eb, F# (each chord is a m3rd apart)

four Minor triads- Am, Cm, Ebm, F#m (each chord is a m3rd apart)

 

That's a LOT of stuff in that scale. It's covers pretty much all of the common chord and extended chords families...except the maj7 extended family. Because of this, it gives you A LOT of opportunities to use this scale where you might not think it would fit.

[lectrician]

This is a really good conversation.

The un-noted 7's like A7, C7, They are dominant right? With the b7?

Nevermind, You said as much in an early post. I re-read a little before posting this.

I hope I remember this threads name when I have a little time. I have Finals fior the next 2 weeks. Time for Visual basic.

[gennation]

This is a really good conversation. The un-noted 7's like A7, C7, They are dominant right? With the b7? Nevermind, You said as much in an early post. I re-read a little before posting this. I hope I remember this threads name when I have a little time. I have Finals fior the next 2 weeks. Time for Visual basic.

 

Yep, a major chord with a b7 would be a dom7, or a 7th chord.

 

A good introduction on chord/Interval terminology can be found here: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Intervals/IntervalsTOC.htm

 

And then follow that up with a comprehensive tutorial on chord building here: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/ChdCon/ChdConTOC.htm

 

Then if you want a deep tutoiral on Diminished stuff look here: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/diminished-concepts-in-common-music-t26.html

[Stackabones]

 

You know, follow me on this one... That Bb7 at the end of the progression I posted sounds exactly like something out of The Peanuts music. Like something Schroeder would play. Listen to the Bb7 resolving to Cmaj7. Who ever wrote the stuff for Schultz' stuff used this idea almost everywhere. Cool sound.

 

 

IIRC Vince Guaraldi did the Christmas one as well as the others. That's gotta be some of my first exposure to jazz.

[lollygag]

or to simplyfy, the Amaj7 to Bbdim7 is easy voice leading. just raise the root by a half step and lower the G# to a Gnatural.

 

in the classical world, the Bb dim could be acting as a Common tone diminished chord, thereby acting as a decoration of the E major coming after it. used for example in the "Waltz of the flowers" from the nutcracker suite.

[Reverend Cheese]

MikeGennation,

 

Where did you studyget your degree? You are deep man.

[gennation]

 

MikeGennation, Where did you studyget your degree? You are deep man.

 

 

Thanks Rev!

 

No degree, I guess I've just always loved the theory side as much as the playing side.

 

I've taken a couple of music/theory classes at a local college back in 1981. But other than that it's been a quest of my own. And a LOT of playing/practice, shows, roadwork, studio,, etc...

 

If there were any real resources I'd say playing with great musicians, Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry, old lesson columns in Guitar Player magazines from the 70's to today, the Internet and DVD material we have today, Interlochen Music School but that was when I was 12 years old and it was for percussion, and I continue to read theory and stylistic books I find.

 

But it comes down to learning to play and comprehend what's was going on musically with many great players across many styles...and as a teacher, trying to communicate that back t people. I think all of that is the key for me.

 

Thanks for asking.