opinions on foot tapping

[Steadfastly]

Here's a video on the world's premiere foot (stomper) tapper.

[1001gear]

The overture is a good example of a driving 4/4 that certainly has a pocket. A good orchestra can do it without a conductor. No foot schlogging either. Actually, there was a rythmic training course at The North Carolina School of the Arts when I was there. Everyone had to pass out of it. Sightreading complex rythmns and speaking those rythmns with "da" or "ta". We were allowed to use a hand to tap the beat of the measure on a leg. Not at all easy, and a tough class. Did lots for my game! I managed to internalize the beat. Ultimately, I didn't have to tap on my leg to convince the instructor I knew what I was doing and pass. I've said my piece, I guess. To all. I'd be cautious with the one size fits all-ya gotta tap your foot to be in the pocket - and it looks more "PRO" approaches. Yikes!

 

A lot of pre romantic music would certainly go by on automatic. At least tempo wise. In bringing up nuance and detail, I was trying to distinguish precise musical playing from merely steady, locked in playing. I do think with this tap or not discussion that we're ignoring the whole of what is a very complex system.

Hanging with a clock is very different from the act of adding an additional rhythm to your playing be it the beat or some subordinate reference rhythm. Basic example, classical rhythms - even simple old lady stuff will often sound 'free standing' with no groove or feel afforded the time signature. Street rhythms can be relatively complex but will always sound lumpy by comparison because the basic signature IS treated as a rhythm. I think to tap or not to tap is in there someplace, subordinate to whatever the problem is.

 

 

I don't know what this is. It won't go away.

[YOUTUBE]KE_6vWb0iBs[/YOUTUBE]

[Jasco]

"Just when you think you're out..." There is nothing a tapping foot will teach you that a plain old metronome won't teach you better.

I'd respectfully disagree. Sometimes syncopations can be more easily and quickly absorbed using offsetting motions.

Also, I'm not advocating foot tapping at the expense of not using a click.

Additionally, for what it's worth, I don't think using a click or foot tapping simply as downbeat quarter notes is the most efficient use of those tools once a player is past beginning or intermediate stages of timing execution.

If you've really got your groove on, you should be able to play solid to click and/or foot tap on any subdivision in the beat or measure. Which leads back to my first statement...

Also, your average classical musician probably spends ten/twenty times more time with a click (read metronome ) than any other type of musician. It's stock and trade. But, they leave the metronome at home.

I'd disagree with this too, as all it takes is a mere couple hours a day with a metronome to make this a physical impossibility.

[Phlat Phive]

Also, I'm not advocating foot tapping at the expense of not using a click.

 

 

See, this is what it comes down to. I don't think anyone is suggesting to use foot tapping as a metronome replacement, and if anyone is, they're wrong.

 

The reason to do it is to internalise the beat by focusing your motor system on it; to feel the beat rather than just hear it. And in my opinion, the best way to practice this is actually with a metronome + foot tapping, that way you learn what it feels like to really lock into a groove.

[ghstofperdition]

Whichever teacher said to not tap your foot is not worthy of being a guitar instructor. Rhythm is everything man....

I personally prefer headbanging as it does pretty much the same thing, but you always need a way to keep the beat. Sure a metronome does a much better job, but there are always situations where having one on hand isn't feasible. One can also internalize rhythms and beats, but that's only after countless hours of playing and experience. Even then, having a means to keep time is still very important.....

Personally, I'd ask for a refund from the teacher that told you not to tap your foot as he sounds as if he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

[RockViolin]

Hanging with a clock is very different from the act of adding an additional rhythm to your playing be it the beat or some subordinate reference rhythm. Basic example, classical rhythms - even simple old lady stuff will often sound 'free standing' with no groove or feel afforded the time signature.

No longer frustrated. I get your meaning.

I do syncopated rhythm violin tracks ( yes, rhythm violin) to some of my songs. It's a technique that I developed. The key is a left hand slap against the fingerboard when the bow isn't moving. Without the slap, the rhythm is much harder to pull off, and doesn't have the feel. Tapping my foot helps, maybe, (I'll give it more of a try later), but is still not as good as the slap, as the slap is quite forceful and audible.
So in that sense I can fully understand the value of an offsetting body part, nod, grunt etc.

I was mostly on about the idea that for students a tapping foot is a dependable replacement for a mercilessly honest click, blah blah. It's not.

Free standing classical music. Yeah, lotsa rubati. The music grooves as it is needed, when it is appropriate. It's not slave to it. That's why someone tapping away with their foot is such a no-no.

I enjoyed the clip.

[RockViolin]

I'd disagree with this too, as all it takes is a mere couple hours a day with a metronome to make this a physical impossibility.

I covered the first part of your reply in my post above.


I may have exaggerated just a bit. Nevertheless, over the course of a lifetime, a career...

Anyway, most classical musicians are not new working with a click. Metronomes are a fixture in many classical musicians' studios. Some of them may have trouble with groove, or feel. I think that's what you're saying. Perhaps not so many as you think. After a certain point, it's all just music.

[Jasco]

I was mostly on about the idea that for students a tapping foot is a dependable replacement for a mercilessly honest click, blah blah. It's not.

Agreed 100% here. And I certainly wasn't advocating it as a replacement. But rather as an additional tool that has usefulness for certain things.

Some of them may have trouble with groove, or feel. I think that's what you're saying. Perhaps not so many as you think. After a certain point, it's all just music.

As I hinted at earlier, I think it's largely a matter of what context one is training for. While I don't know of too many classical musicians who could groove comfortably in a funk band, for instance, the reverse would also hold true. Take some cat from a funk band and have them try to follow a conductor and watch (or listen rather) to the trainwreck about to take place.

However, it seems that string players are more often transplanted to pop/rock settings than rock/blues/jazz/funk cats are used in a classical music environment.

[1001gear]

No longer frustrated. I get your meaning. I do syncopated rhythm violin tracks ( yes, rhythm violin) to some of my songs. It's a technique that I developed. The key is a left hand slap against the fingerboard when the bow isn't moving. Without the slap, the rhythm is much harder to pull off, and doesn't have the feel. Tapping my foot helps, maybe, (I'll give it more of a try later), but is still not as good as the slap, as the slap is quite forceful and audible. So in that sense I can fully understand the value of an offsetting body part, nod, grunt etc. I was mostly on about the idea that for students a tapping foot is a dependable replacement for a mercilessly honest click, blah blah. It's not. Free standing classical music. Yeah, lotsa rubati. The music grooves as it is needed, when it is appropriate. It's not slave to it. That's why someone tapping away with their foot is such a no-no. I enjoyed the clip.

I wish there was video of that Robert Klein bit. Hilarious.

One thing about classical rhythm, it's not just rubato. Even in straight ahead baroque and classical, the phrasing is all about propulsion and momentum. Long strings of notes will often be played without the familiar rhythmic emphasis or hesitations you find in jazz and pop. It may even be that the listener has to tap along.

[Virgman]

You guys have inspired me to tap my foot.

 

I'm going to try to do it.

[JohnnyWishbone]

Rhythm should be Felt, not Thought.



Johnny

[Jasco]

Rhythm should be Felt, not Thought. Johnny

 

 

I'd agree that's the ultimate goal. But during the learning process it can help to think and count rhythms to make sure one understands exactly what is being played. Especially for complex syncopations or odd meters.

[JohnnyWishbone]

I'd agree that's the ultimate goal. But during the learning process it can help to think and count rhythms to make sure one understands exactly what is being played. Especially for complex syncopations or odd meters.

 

 

Yes. Use foot Tapping During this learning/couting Process to facilitate Feeling.

 

 

 

JOhnny

[jeremy_green]

This is what I love about this place! Thanks Rockviolin for bringing in the classical side of this discussion. Sometimes we get our heads so far into what we know that seeing the other side can be tough.

 

Classical music to me has always been a free form flow thing. The tempo is always moving around as the conductor feels it and guides it along. I cant see how you really could accurately tap your foot in that environment?

 

For me the act of foot tapping - because it is muscle related - forces me to be aware of the beat at all times. As others have said this is absolutely NOT a replacement for a metronome. I am not ever saying that. I am an advocate FOR a metronome.

 

Drummers work on independence of their limbs and it is the combination of those movements that makes their pocket so tight (in pro players). You follow what i mean there? To me the act of tapping your foot in conjunction of the movement of your hands forms this lock into the tempo. Similar to the way a drummers hi hat foot holds them in place. When you are so bodily focused on the groove it helps you feel the subdivisions cleaner. At least it does me.

 

When I am "all in" and physically committed to the beat my playing becomes tighter. I am aware of it (sometimes that awareness messes me up but thats another thread : )

 

As I said my experience with the highest level players I have worked with is they most all count - least the ones I have asked. Whether that is in their head or with their foot the awareness of the beat at all times is common. This isnt just a "feel it" thing. It is conscious.

 

To name drop like a wanker a bit here. I just finished a gig and the drummer was Aubrey Dayle (played with Vernon Reid, James Blood Ulmer, John Popper, Peter Gabriel) we had a discussion about timing and he said (I am paraphrasing) he realized early on that all these cats were counting. They were all engaged in the time in a very literal way. So he started REALLY WORKING on this until he got to the point where he could. Now he does it all the time.

 

If you heard Aubrey Play the kit you cant say he isnt a "feel player" he is and was but he was made better in this own acknowledgment by a strict focus on time.

 

Foot tapping is a strict acknowledgment.

 

Here is Al DiMeola's clip I mentioned earlier. This is what I am getting at - Seriously check it out (specifically at 3:39 into it) :

 

 

 

Sorry to be long winded here guys!

[lectrician]

though there are both types, I think that overall tempo change is often misenterpreted variations of the beat.
My band guys Will ask me why I changed tempo or time, but the fact is as a drummer its just easy to change the snare from 1,n to 2, 4 to 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 1,n,2,n etc... to speed up. They are all played in the same count at the same tempo, but the result is anywhere from slow and dominating to annoyingly punk/almost constantly 1/2 drum roll.

Whether you tap or not, learn to count time if you can't already. And if you can count basic time, work on harder time. 5/4, 6/4, 5/8, 13/8 these can all get really easy once understood. Without the ability to meter your self you have no cornerstone to rely upon internally if things head south.

GREAT dimeola video.

[RockViolin]

This is what I love about this place! Thanks Rockviolin for bringing in the classical side...

My pleasure Jeremy_Green.

"Classical" music may be less slave to a beat, but pulse and an awareness of it are still vital.

Re the clip. It works for him. Maybe just a glorified coordination exercise for some. I'm pretty sure he could be knockin a knee or shakin his ass. He sits down, so he's left with a foot. I'd be surprised if he couldn't do it without tapping.

Chicken or the egg? The pulse has to be internal to get farmed out to an external manifestation.

I was checkin it out. Whether I'm playing Bach or gettin wid da boogie, I feel it in my chest. Sternum. Small exhalations of the pulse at times. I can tap my foot, but it just seems like an add on. It doesn't add anything but a tapping foot. I can even hang in the pocket and just wiggle my foot willy nilly. Totally unrelated. LOL! Try THAT Mr. Di Meola!

When I'm all in, I'm in with every fibre of my being. I do some physical things, as I feel the urge to sometimes. Not all urges are entertained.

Internalize it, externalize it, live it, breathe it, wear it, guitar face it, slobber it...

I'm not much of a dogma guy, though. Learn the rules and then break them with aplomb. I have to stop at stoplights. I don't have to tap my foot and Al can't make me! His absolutes are his absolutes.

[Jeffmo]

foot tapping is good way to stay in time and find your "inner pulse"!!!
a Metronome is much more accurate, but you should foot tap!

[RockViolin]

Further thoughts.

I have a G3 tape. Satriani, Vai, Johnson. Not a lot of foot tapping going on, not by them anyway. Johnson hardly moves. Joe's bass player has a leg going, bends at the knees to the beat. But it's more like he's just getting off. Not indicating/dictating a clock, like Di Meola. And I've seen the Ingwie version G3. (A bull in a china shop!)

So maybe it is fair to say it's somewhat genre/situation dependent. I can imagine with the stuff Di Meola does, especially the guitar trio sans rhythm section, it's important to have a subtle indicator of the pulse...simply to keep 3 strong musical personalities on the same page. Flamenco-a tapping foot. Makes sense.

It happens in string quartets. Stewardship of the pulse. It's not all Mozart and Beethoven ya know, and frequently, *in lieu of a loud thumping drum*, someone has to take charge. It's usually the player with the part that has the most rythmic involvement.
"Scarey" empty spaces are measured by all, best effort and it better be good, or even left unmeasured in some cases. First violin usually gets it going again with a prepratory upbeat/downbeat with the scroll of his violin. That's all folks get to pick it up. It would take a REALLY tough sitch to *cheat* and have someone tap.

[1001gear]

C'mon. No classical bunch worth paying attention to will remain still to even the stateliest passages in their repertoire. Conductors bounce to the beat and pounce on rests. In the ensemble heads bob, torsos gyrate, there's even hair involved. What exactly is the question? lolz.

[RockViolin]

C'mon. No classical bunch worth paying attention to will remain still to even the stateliest passages in their repertoire. Conductors bounce to the beat and pounce on rests. In the ensemble heads bob, torsos gyrate, there's even hair involved. What exactly is the question? lolz.

Yes, to a degree, and don't forget eye contact. I never said people don't move. I'm certainly not a statue. But all that movement is a result of being "all in" and is a NOT the same as hammering away at the beat of the measure with a foot! As for conductors, I was a professional orchestra player for many years, and for 7 summers I was a player in The Conductor's Institute Orchestra. (It was a gig.) I can tell you that any conductor that finds it neccessary to "pounce" on rests with what we called a "conductor solo" has little confidence in his players or even in himself. That's for paranoid youth symphony conductors and run of the mill church choir directors. And any conductor that habitually taps his foot is on VERY thin ice and won't be on the podium long I can assure you. lolz at yer own self bro-

[1001gear]

I just think, beginners should tap and march and in many situations pros can reap the 'benefits' as well lolz but polite swaying or Mehta esque (the pouncer in question) histrionics, it's all vital to the rhythm. Inseparable.

[jeremy_green]

Nice insight.

 

There are some differences between classical and "pop" music clearly. I dont think there is any argument there.

 

In classical it ebbs and flows much more. In rock or jazz basically in most cases a tempo is set and the song ends the same (notable exceptions). Plus in classical the amount of players makes it difficult for any one player to set the tempo. Where in pop the band size is much smaller and much can be done through that same eye contact. So variations in tempo are felt but also seen a little quicker.

 

The discussion to me is where does this "feel" come from. The gut? Sternum? Clearly that is impossible - everything in our bodies is just meat without the brain leading it. So the feel must come from there. So that being my logic, the foot tapping thing leads to a stronger pulse throughout the body. Agreed it doesnt need to be the foot, a "head bang" would suffice, "shake your ass" all that other good stuff you mentioned. Regardless what it is I think some sort of body movement only helps reinforce the pulse would it not?

 

Now apply that to sitting at home practicing ... Not really a head banging/ass shaking environment. Least I dont feel so pumped. Therefore the foot tapping seems to me a solid alternative. Plus jazz or solo gigs dont really quite look right with head banging or ass shaking : )

 

Al DiMeola is an absolute MONSTER with rhythm. One f the best. Chick Corea as well. I dont know if I would be so quick as to cast their opinions aside. Al mentioned "working" on his rhythm - this is key for me. In the absence of a metronome a foot makes a great alternative no? To me it is all about maintaining focus on time - this is critical in my books.

 

Listen to me! I sound like the defender of foot tappers everywhere! For the record this is something I started working on fairly recently and it has shown gains. I still tighten up during technical parts (like Johnson does although I doubt he is tight! He rules). I am not being argumentative here just we seem to be having a healthy full discussion so I wanted to raise these thoughts and look forward to feedback.

 

Cheers!

[deejcello]

I've been a classical player for most of my life, just started doing my own music and rock-type stuff a couple years ago, and I've been tapping my foot in some way or another for most of it. I will say that some conductors frown upon foot tapping, but my teacher was all for it, as long as it was steady.

 

You can't be too forgiving with yourself when tapping your foot, otherwise everything will end up uneven. Also, I play with a guitarist who is very skilled technically, but it seems that every time I lose the rhythm, I'll look to his foot tapping to pick it back up, but that invariably fails because he is so sporadic with his tapping.

 

When playing in an orchestra, foot tapping can be distracting both audibly and visibly to other players. However, as a tool for practicing new and difficult passages, tapping a foot (or alternating feet) has helped me greatly to learn new rhythms and to get a sense of what fits into a beat. When I perform a classical piece on-stage, or when I'm in an audition, I've learned its important not to tap your feet because so many conductors and classical music people are against it. The workaround to this is simply only tapping your big toe inside your shoe.

[RockViolin]

The discussion to me is where does this "feel" come from. The gut? Sternum? Clearly that is impossible - everything in our bodies is just meat without the brain leading it. So the feel must come from there.

I agree. The chest is just one place that I feel a physical aspect to the pulse. I suppose I refer to that as internalized because, well, it's relatively internal. It's a place where I feel the pulse focused when all other physical manifestations, urges, are not entertained. I can put it to a foot, the pinky on my bow, my eyelids, just about anywhere. I think one can have a physical acknowledgement of the pulse just about anywhere. Not everyone has to.

Again, I'm leary of one size fits all - cookie cutter approaches. A tapping foot, (which I think Al is rather subtle with btw.) may be a vital key to doing his thang. Maybe there are different keys to different musical kingdoms, methinks. But I can probably go on mentioning great guitarists of various styles that don't have a foot tapping away at the meter when they play.

I think that for working it out in a practice room, a metronome is of considerably more value.


Some people may not have to tap their foot. I'm one of them. I've never found that students that have a poorly developed sense of rhythm are much aided by tapping a foot. I refer them to the metronome. What they end up choosing to do, or what they can get away with, as professionals, is up to them...unless they're sitting next to me.

[jeremy_green]

Its funny that you have such a pet peeve with one size fits all. Classical teachings i have had are very much that way. Also many many classical players I have played with are quite robotic with regards to expressing themselves. I applaud you for that attitude. I dont think it is healthy to use only one approach. To me the key is moderation. Find the approaches that fit you. I use many and any if they work.

 

Coming from a guitar upbringing (mostly self taught for me in my formative years) the prevailing attitude is to "just play by feel" and develop your ear, who needs theory - all that. Not that i agree with that 100% but that is a prevailing attitude out there. Hell I think that is why many guitarists dont even like using metronomes cause they dont like being told when to play what!

 

Good side

-many guitarists can play freely without music

 

Bad side

-many guitarists are musically ignorant therefore hard to work with (and mostly proud of it)

 

That's why i love having discussions with players of other instruments. There is a mutual learning that can happen there in those discussions (like this one). We are all so different that you really need to pick and choose what playing approaches you are going to use. The key IMO is an open mind and a willingness to try something that goes against the teachings.

 

You never know what is going to stick! I am a musical slut - I will try anything to get better!

 

Who would ever think a topic of tapping your foot would elicit 4 pages of discussion. Could be worse - could be another discussion on modes : )

 

Take care