Members GreenAsJade Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 ... how come we never hear much about this? It's amazing that the place is full of "mode talk", but nothing much about something that actually escapes the diatonic shackles I was straining a bit just now trying to understand a nice little Muse riff I've been working on learning (more of which later) ... and suddenly the light went on. Harmonic minor! Whoa, now I get it! GaJ
Members mosiddiqi Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 Probably my favourite scale....I did this bit of wankage a while back to demonstrate...harmonic minor/phrygian dominant type thing..backing track by slavenewworld0 : http://www.box.net/shared/1bleuzvrak
Members GreenAsJade Posted August 23, 2009 Author Members Posted August 23, 2009 Wowee - that rocked - nice Very "Musey" too! Dare I ask about "phrygian dominant"? ... GaJ Edit... I haven't got my ears around it properly yet. At the point where you change tone, do you also change scale? (about 2/3rds through)
Members SlaveNewWorld0 Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 Yeh that was beautifully illustrated Mos. Harmonic minor's distinct sound comes mostly from that major 7th leading tone, and also its interaction with the equally harsh flat 6th tone (similar to Aeolian). Some may correct me here, but I think the most important relationship to learn is that between harmonic minor and its 5th mode - phrygian dominant. http://www.fretjam.com/harmonic-minor-phrygian.html (please ignore the advert!) This relationship is used in countless different ways, but yeh I have heard it a lot in Muse's stuff to very good effect. The guys on here will be able to tell you more about what you can do with this wonderful scale.
Members mosiddiqi Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 Wowee - that rocked - nice Very "Musey" too! Dare I ask about "phrygian dominant"? ... GaJ Edit... I haven't got my ears around it properly yet. At the point where you change tone, do you also change scale? (about 2/3rds through) Thanks! It's pretty much all Harmonic minor/Phrygian dominant (which is the 5th mode of harmonic minor) and pentatonic..being a pentatonic based player, I just wanted to show how you can mix it up with the b7 of the pent and the Maj7 of the HM. When it switches to the neck pickup it's an Eb Aug arpeggio that climbs up to G Phrygian Dom and then when I change back to the bridge pick up, it's pentatonic, but I keep bouncing off the Maj7. I think. I always struggle to analyse my own playing A very common "yngwie" type lick to incorporate pentatonic/harmonic minor is something like this: Straight ahead pentatonic start followed by ascending Diminished arps from the harmonic minor scale..adds a really nice twist to a standard cliche..
Members Jasco Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 I think it's important to understand the harmonization of scales. So if you want to be able to use harmonic minor (or any other scale), find out what chords you can build from it. Then when you run across those chords you'll know what scale to use. Also, just for myself, I don't think "harmonic minor scale" as such very often, but I'll play lines that, if you analyzed all the notes, could be considered harmonic minor. But I'm thinking chords instead. Dominant b9, two major triads a half step apart, diminished a half step above a dominant chord, V7 - i, ect... All of those things can imply harmonic minor by playing (and understanding) chordal relationships. Hope that helps.
Members John H. Power Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 I have just started to commit this scale to memory across the fretboard and wonder what progression of chords would allow me to improvise with it. I know I can play it over the E7 of a Am-Dm-E7 progression but I would like a progression that may let me "linger" on the scale a bit longer.
Members GreenAsJade Posted August 23, 2009 Author Members Posted August 23, 2009 I just ordered, the other day, that recently-recommended "Jazz Theory" book . While I wait, where else can I start reading about chord-theory? I understand basic chord construction (so I can make a 9th chord, or a diminished chord etc from principles) but I get left behind when you start talking about how they all hang together in progressions ... GaJ
Members Jasco Posted August 23, 2009 Members Posted August 23, 2009 I have just started to commit this scale to memory across the fretboard and wonder what progression of chords would allow me to improvise with it. I know I can play it over the E7 of a Am-Dm-E7 progression but I would like a progression that may let me "linger" on the scale a bit longer. Try: E7 - F/E Linger on A harmonic minor all you want. Or better yet, let the chord tones be your guide. Minor Swing by Django is a good tune to learn also. Has the same Am-Dm-E7 changes you mentioned, but 2 bars each, so you've got some time to get into each chord.
Members Lunarsteps Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 There are quite a few nifty tricks within the Harmonic Minor. 1st one is the old "Dim7" a semitone behind the root. Am-G#dim7-Am Next up, we can move that dim7 shape up or down in minor 3rds Am-G#dim7-Bdim7-Ddim7-Fdim7-Am Another, we can use secondary dominants within Harmonic Minor to create "chromatic" turnarounds Take F-G-Am Becomes F-D7-G-E7-Am Knock the dom7 chords down to triads, and invert em. Now we have F-D/F#-G-E/G#-Am which can be heard easily by playing this figurein powerchords |------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|-3--5--5--7--7---------------------------------|-1--2--3--4--5-------------------------------- Then there is the old Am - AmMaj7 - Am7 - Am6 Sooooo much more
Members whiteop Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 I love harmonic minor to and use it all the time when I can slip it into a piece and make it work. If you are any type of metal player you know harmonic minor.
Members whiteop Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 There are quite a few nifty tricks within the Harmonic Minor.1st one is the old "Dim7" a semitone behind the root.Am-G#dim7-AmNext up, we can move that dim7 shape up or down in minor 3rdsAm-G#dim7-Bdim7-Ddim7-Fdim7-AmAnother, we can use secondary dominants within Harmonic Minor to create "chromatic" turnaroundsTake F-G-AmBecomes F-D7-G-E7-AmKnock the dom7 chords down to triads, and invert em.Now we haveF-D/F#-G-E/G#-Amwhich can be heard easily by playing this figurein powerchords|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------|-3--5--5--7--3---------------------------------|-1--2--3--4--5--------------------------------Then there is the old Am - AmMaj7 - Am7 - Am6Sooooo much more yeah I understand the concept no problem. I just do it by instinct and dont' think about it when I'm playing. It just comes out.
Members jonPhillips Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 I love harmonic minor to and use it all the time when I can slip it into a piece and make it work. If you are any type of Ritchie Blackmore fan you know harmonic minor. This
Members GreenAsJade Posted August 24, 2009 Author Members Posted August 24, 2009 The first rock album I bought was Rainbow Rising. GaJ
Members flump Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 ... how come we never hear much about this? It's amazing that the place is full of "mode talk", but nothing much about something that actually escapes the diatonic shackles I was straining a bit just now trying to understand a nice little Muse riff I've been working on learning (more of which later) ... and suddenly the light went on. Harmonic minor! Whoa, now I get it! GaJ Just curious, but which Muse riff are you talking about? Fury by chance?
Members SlaveNewWorld0 Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 Harmonic minor seems to be a pretty staple part of Muse's sound.
Members flump Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 Harmonic minor seems to be a pretty staple part of Muse's sound. This is very true. It is also probably the reason I love their sound so much. I'm a big fan of harm. minor/phrygian dominant. This riff is actually my favorite one they've ever played, and its not part of a song. Skip to 5:30 [YOUTUBE]nUg2nD2zJic[/YOUTUBE]
Members girevik Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 I understand basic chord construction (so I can make a 9th chord, or a diminished chord etc from principles) but I get left behind when you start talking about how they all hang together in progressions ... My understanding of chord progressions really clicked for me, when I started working on my own bass lines for jazz tunes. When I work on a bass line, I have to really focus on what the chord tones are. Studying tunes built from the Jazz-Blues song form is a great way to build up your understanding if you're coming from a rock/blues background. I particularly had a breakthrough in figuring out how Oscar Peterson spiced up blues progressions on his classic Night Train album. For example, check out the title track: http://www.last.fm/music/Oscar+Peterson/_/Night+Train When Peterson plays the head, it's straight up I-IV-V blues. When he solos though, he uses some reharmonizations that sound cool and are not hard to pick up, due to the relaxed vibe of the track. I haven't figured out the all the chord designations (I'm not sure what the A7 would be in the key of C, because C major scale harmony says the chord with A as the root would be Amin), but in the key of C, I could turn C7-F7-C7-G7-F7-C7 into C7-F7-C7-A7-Dmin7-G7-C7 So basically, the G7-F7 is substituted by A7-Dmin7-G7 . I usually play some altered form of G7, lots of cool sounds to be had by trying different altered 7ths. The Night Train album is a textbook of basic blues reharmonizations, and fairly easy to grasp because most of the tunes are played at slow tempi. Steely Dan has a lot of great blues reharms in its catalog too ("Chain Lightning", "Peg", etc.).
Members girevik Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 Mos, great clip, man! As for me, I find myself leaning towards harmonic minor when I play "Autumn Leaves", because the melody is in that scale. But I don't practice harmonic minor scale runs, sequences or other patterns in that scale.
Members mosiddiqi Posted August 24, 2009 Members Posted August 24, 2009 Mos, great clip, man! As for me, I find myself leaning towards harmonic minor when I play "Autumn Leaves", because the melody is in that scale. But I don't practice harmonic minor scale runs, sequences or other patterns in that scale. Thanks girevik! ...I stole pretty much all of what I do with that scale from Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Roth..
Members GreenAsJade Posted August 25, 2009 Author Members Posted August 25, 2009 Just curious, but which Muse riff are you talking about? Fury by chance? Plug In Baby. I'm winding up to do a little thread on it... GaJ
Members stomias Posted August 26, 2009 Members Posted August 26, 2009 A couple of search results that may help....... http://www.fretjam.com/harmonic-minor-phrygian.html http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-4-3.html
Members John H. Power Posted August 26, 2009 Members Posted August 26, 2009 A couple of search results that may help.......http://www.fretjam.com/harmonic-minor-phrygian.htmlhttp://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-4-3.html As to the backing tracks on your first link, can the applicable harmonic minor scale be played over the entire track or only during certain chords? I tried playing a harmonic scale over 2 "box" positions for both tracks and sometimes the notes sounded like they fit in and other times they did not. As to the latter observation more so in the 1st track than the 2nd.
Members SlaveNewWorld0 Posted August 28, 2009 Members Posted August 28, 2009 As to the backing tracks on your first link, can the applicable harmonic minor scale be played over the entire track or only during certain chords? I tried playing a harmonic scale over 2 "box" positions for both tracks and sometimes the notes sounded like they fit in and other times they did not. As to the latter observation more so in the 1st track than the 2nd. Hi, the first lesson is from my site. The text in the lesson explains how to highlight particular tones of harmonic minor through these chord changes. For example, the major 7th of harmonic minor is a particularly harsh tone over its related minor tonic chord, but used as a leading tone, it can be used in a lead-up resolution from the V chord. Also, in the 2nd backing track, there is a change from the minor tonic (B minor) to its VI chord (G major), which challenges you to further negotiate the tense nature of modal harmonic minor. I suggest trying minor Phrygian over this chord (G minor phrygian), although it loses the spice of modal harmonic minor. Again, it's a case of using those harsher tones as passing/leading tones. Glance over them using legato techniques (hammer-ons/pull-offs, quick release bends etc.), don't rest on these notes but rather build phrases around them, using them as bridges between more stable/neutral tones. Hope that helps!
Members Brian May Posted August 31, 2009 Members Posted August 31, 2009 The 3rd solo in Sweet Child O'Mine uses the Harmonic minor scale IIRC. It does also have some D natural notes in it as well...so seems to be using both the E natural minor scale and the harmonic minor E harmonic minor over this sequence.... Em > C > B > Am (its really played in 5ths but they would be the full chords) Em = E,G, BC = C, E, GB = B, D#, F#Am = A, C, E If you look at the chords they all have notes that belong to the harmonic minor scale. E harmonic minor = E F# G A B C D# and that really is the law on using any scale = if you can build chords from that scale then you can play that scale over it...but like with any scale you may care to use - even the humble pentatonic = it will only sound as good as you make it sound, but from a theory point of view it will sound correct if you are targetting the tones of the chords your playing over. Its hard for many rock players to do this and easy for many jazzers simply because in the main we learn differently - jazzers learn to play over the chords firstly ie they constantly target the changes or chord tones as they go by...were your typical lazy rocker just learns a scale like the pentatonic scale in a key then blows over that scale for all his licks...and it becomes hit n miss. Cool if your ear is sufficient to lead you to subconsciously follow the chord tones - like it does with Gary Moore for example...but many of us we will land on notes even in the pentatonic at the wrong time ie over a chord that doesn't suit that note perhaps as good as the last chord did...or the next chord will. Example of what I mean say were in Em...E sounds great over Em and C as that note E is present in both those chords...but when the chord goes to D the E note wont sound as good - as its not a chord tone its an extension like Dadd 9 or D9...so there'll be a little more tension there...were in that case say you were milking an E note over the Em chord (root)...stay on it for the C chord (3rd) then move up 2 frets to F# when the D chord comes around your playing would sound better as your lines are following the chords...if you stay on E over the D chord you'll hear a little tension...but again if you resolve to another good note ie a note from the D chord then it will work....music is all about tension and resolution. Many noobs just learn a "one scale fits all" and wonder why they dont sound as melodic or nice as their favourite players. Many great players that seem to be really melodic even without knowing all this stuff are doing 1 of 2 things - they have a great ear and can play notes they hear in their heads that the music inspires them to play and therefore the notes fit (we dont dream up bum notes when soloing and deliberately play them!) or they have by trial and error composed something that works...which when you anylise what they ended up following what theory says will work...but they did it "blind" by trial and error - if we take time to learn this stuff we can know what works before we even play it. But that takes a lot of time and practice as we are shooting a moving target were the goalposts are always moving!
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