Members gnr2391 Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 Hey. I am trying to learn the Altered Scale and Phrygian Dominant scales since I started studying jazz. I don't really know how to approach learning these new scales in the most productive way. I know some of you will say approach it the same way you approached your major scales, but the truth is that I learned those so long ago I completely forgot what I did. So if anyone could give me a way where I can learn these scales around the neck in the most efficient way it would be much appreciated. THANKS A LOT EVERYONE!
Members Jasco Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 Make sure to learn them in relation to the chords you'll be playing them over.
Members GreenAsJade Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 Ways to learn scales - Drill them. Play them in across the fret board, up a string. Find the different "inversions" of them and drill those (IE with the root note on the same fret different string etc) - Find songs with solos/melodies that use them, and learn those. I can't really think of anything else. It's work ... I guess when you learned the major scales, this is what you did? GaJ
Members mosiddiqi Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 I think Jasco and GAJ pretty much covered it. I would reiterate Jasco's point that it's important to learn the scale with the underlying chords in mind. So, write out your scale, I like to map out a fretboard chart, I find visuals helpful.. write out the chords, make up progressions using those chords and play in every position. I find singing the notes helps internalise them quicker. As a matter of interest, the two scales you mentioned are both modes of the Harmonic Minor ( 5th mode, Phrygian Dominant) and Melodic Minor (7th mode, Altered or Super Locrian) So, you might want to look into learning those two scales thoroughly as they will cover the specific modes you're interested in and help to understand the harmony and their uses.
Members GreenAsJade Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 Melodic Minor is a mode of Harmonic Minor!? I didn't have that on my radar, I'll have to go and look at it!
Members gennation Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 I have tutorials on these scales and their application too that will help you get them under your fingers for sure. Phrygian Dominant (there are tabs, notation and audio examples for over 40ish lessons and examples of the scale): http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/PhryDom/PhryDomTOC.htmhttp://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide2/indslidehome_frames.htm Altered Scale (Melodic Minor/Super Locrian/Lydian Dominant.etc...): http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htmhttp://mikedodge.freeforums.org/ii-v-i-playing-over-the-changes-t19.htmlhttp://mikedodge.freeforums.org/modal-fodder-d-aeolian-and-eb-lydian-dominant-t34.htmlhttp://mikedodge.freeforums.org/an-exercise-using-the-arpeggio-s-of-the-melodic-minor-scale-t12.html Here's stuff for the Diminished Scale that's pretty much fits with both of those other scales too: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/some-thoughts-on-copping-that-jimmy-herring-diminished-vibe-t6.htmlhttp://mikedodge.freeforums.org/diminished-concepts-in-common-music-t26.html Here's an example of playing A Mixolydian, A Lydian Dominant, A Diminished (H-W), and A Phrygian Dominant scales over a straight A7 chord: That video goes out and kind of stays out, or hangs out in the "tension area" a little more than most might want to. You get much more "effect" if you blend the Tension with Release, but that wasn't the purpose of that video. If you need real world examples of where you find these scales, just ask. One thing nobody EVER teaches, which is a FUNDAMENTAL technique for playing outside, is...START your licks with these scales on the "and" of a beat. IOW, start your licks in between the 1 and 2, the 2 and 3, the 3 and 4, or the 4 and 1. Starting on the "and" gives you a little forward motion or propelling that is HUGELY missing if you start these licks on the beat. Just this little idea alone will change your playing forever!
Members GreenAsJade Posted October 11, 2009 Members Posted October 11, 2009 Yeah right on! ... start on the "and". This is something I've only just picked up on. Once you notice it, you start noticing it everywhere. Like cars that are the same make as the one you just bought It's interesting to think about where in the bar you're starting, too. For example, it seems that David Gilmour starts at the end of the bar, often, leading into a big phrase for the next bar. IE anticipating the chord progression that's coming up. On "3 and" or "4 and". Just recently I started looking at "Tomorrow" (Silverchair). This has an interesting one in that it starts on "1 and" .... at the beginning of the bar, just a half beat after it "should" start. IE into the bar where the chord progression for the lead starts. I've started playing with doing that in other places, and it seems cool GaJ
Members mosiddiqi Posted October 12, 2009 Members Posted October 12, 2009 Melodic Minor is a mode of Harmonic Minor!?I didn't have that on my radar, I'll have to go and look at it! Sorry, no, I didn't explain that very well!..the "altered scale" aka "the super locrian mode" is the 7th mode of the Melodic minor scale.
Members GreenAsJade Posted October 12, 2009 Members Posted October 12, 2009 Dang, for a moment there I thought there might be a grand unification of minor scales that I'd missed
Members gennation Posted October 12, 2009 Members Posted October 12, 2009 Speaking of "Minor" and it's scales, the "Minor Key" includes the Natural Minor scale, the Harmonic Minor scale, and the Melodic Minor scale. With a little study on cadences in the Minor Key you with see how they are all glued together from resolution and tension. Personally I think learning the Minor Key will spark your playing and understanding of function much quicker than learning the Major Key stuff. At least it did with me. Amongst other things it will help you with "direction" and make you sound like a "big boy". This is due to it helping you break the "playing over a chord" idea that neglects tension in a lot of players playing.
Members heavy D Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 Hey. I am trying to learn the Altered Scale and Phrygian Dominant scales since I started studying jazz. I don't really know how to approach learning these new scales in the most productive way. I know some of you will say approach it the same way you approached your major scales, but the truth is that I learned those so long ago I completely forgot what I did. So if anyone could give me a way where I can learn these scales around the neck in the most efficient way it would be much appreciated. THANKS A LOT EVERYONE! Not to derail everyone else's train, but the reason you're having trouble learning these things is because they're not the same as they are with diatonic harmony. What I mean is you aren't too likely to play a melodic minor scale over a minor chord as you would a major scale over a major chord. I think the first step in understanding these harmonizations is in reference to a V7 chord. Let's take a ii-V-I in C, so we have Dmin-G7-Cmaj. Over the G7 we can play G mixolydian/C ionian- they're the same notes, right? Either way we want to emphasize the 3rd (B natural) and 7th (F) of G (emphasizing the 3rds and 7th is a building block of jazz). Those are the tension against Cmaj, and they create the strongest resolution. Now let's say we want to add more tension to this move, we can start to alter that G7 chord. As far as I see it there are 3 basic options (there are others!); dimished, augmented, and altered. Diminished stems from raising the root a 1/2 step (which is the same thing as a 7b9 chord). Augmented has to do with raising the 5th. Altered is a combination of the two (which is why an altered scale is often called a whole/half or half/whole scale). In the context of this ii-V-I, over the V chord we wouldn't play G melodic minor, we'd play G altered (which is a MODE of Ab melodic minor). So we have this G7 altered scale (which is a mode of Ab melodic minor). We can play this scale verbatim, note to note, from G to G, but it's not going to sound like much. We can also play it in the context of a ii-V-I in C, in place of the V chord, but again it won't sound like much. But play select notes from this scale over that G7 chord and it will sound good, it will sound like something. Just like with a vanilla G7 chord (where we're looking at the 3rd and 7ths as tensions) we can look at the tensions of a G7alt chord. So we have b9, b5, b13, #9, etc. Look at each one of these and see how they relate to Cmaj7. See how they resolve, see how they move. Next, work at connecting sets of these notes (NOT SCALES) together to resolve to Cmaj7. Look at the arpeggios in G7alt-Abmin/ma7. For instance look at an Fmin7b5 arpeggio and see how it resolves to Cmaj. Try Eb7b13. Abmin/maj7. Bbmin7. B7+. Etc... This is what jazz is about. Learn these different sounds over these chords (it's easier with arpeggios than with scales), listen to your favorite records and try and pick up some vocabulary, Good luck!
Members gennation Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 Not to derail everyone else's train, but the reason you're having trouble learning these things is because they're not the same as they are with diatonic harmony. What I mean is you aren't too likely to play a melodic minor scale over a minor chord as you would a major scale over a major chord. I don't think you're derailing at all, this is a very important point. I was going to mention it in my first post, and much of the links I posted to mention it. The Melodic Minor is different for people to grasp because (as heavy points out) you don't play them, or view them, directly from the Root of the chord your playing...until you understand altered chords in depth that is. Actually I always thought the "Super Locrian Scale" was ONLY given a name due to this very reason, to place the Melodic Minor scale a half step above the chord you play it on...like G SUper Locrian MEANS "Ab Melodic Minor for G7". So, that "scale" you play over G7 isn't "viewed" from G7, it's really Ab...but to conform to the "chord/scale" idea they gave it the name G Super Locrian!!! So, now it just get more convoluted then the Diatonic scales!!!! But there is help... I was taught many years ago two VERY simple way to remember HOW to use a Melodic Minor scale..."base your application on functionality of the Dominant chord"...IOW... 1. If you're Dominant chord is the V7 of a Key moving to the I chord, play a Melodic Minor scale a Half step above the V7 chord. example - playing G7->Cmaj7 play the Ab Melodic Minor scale for the G7 and resolve it to a note in the C chord. 2. If you're Dominant chord is not V7 of the Key you are in, play a Melodic Minor scale up a 5th from the Root of the Dominant chord. example - a D7 would get an A Melodic Minor scale if D7 is not functioning as a V7 chord. The first two chords of Take the A Train are a perfect example of this...| C | C | D7 | D7 | Play C Major over C and A Melodic Minor for D7. Just remember... Dominant chords functioning as a V7 get a Melodic Minor scale a half step up and Dominant chords not functioning as a V7 get a Melodic Minor scale a 5th up. This strips it down to "One Scale, Two Application". This is much easier to navigate while playing than thinking Melodic Minor, Super Locrian, and Lydian Dominant AND two different functions of the Dominant chord on top of it!!! Let's revisit Take The A Train's progression... ||: C | C | D7 | D7 | Dm7 | Dm7 G7 | C | C :|| This progression is PERFECT for applying both applications I've mentioned. The D7 does not function as a V7 the Key of C Major, so it gets A Melodic Minor. But the G7 does function as the V7 of the Key of C Major, so you'd use Ab Melodic Minor here. So you'd have... || C Major | C Major | A Mel Min | A Mel Min | C Major | C Major Ab Mel Min | C Major || VERY VERY COOL progression to practice with. Here's another piece of VERY important info that not a lot of people teach... The MAIN idea for using these scales it to creat tension for what's coming next...some call this "playing outside", here's the important tidbit... when using Melodic Minor, if you do conform to the idea of "chord scales" or "Super Locrian and Lydian Dominant", you end up 'hugging' the chord form a little more than you might want to, after all you are going for an "altered sound" so by thinking of them as One Scale Two Applications you automatically play outside the chord you're on, because you're not really even concerned with the Root of the chord you're on anymore. Work with this idea as it will free you from some chains and you'll be playing more freely by moving away from the "chord scale" idea that gets burned into players mind way too often, and you'll really start "playing outside". This link I posted before : http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htm covers how to get your head wrapped around the "sound" of using the "Melodic Minor up a half step" idea. That video I posted before cover the "Melodic Minor up a 5th" idea. it's using E Melodic Minor over the static A7 chord. Here's another link I have: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Jazz1/Jazz1TOC.htm that takes the Take the A Train progression and tears is open to the point of how the whole progression can be played a ALL Dim7 chords! This lesson even makes my brain hurt.
Members mosiddiqi Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 Cool stuff heavy D and Genn...I'm still working through a Don Mock book which boils down to using the Melodic minor over Dom7 chords either: A fourth upA fifth upA half step upA whole step down All very cool and useful ways of adding tension to either static or functional Dom7 chords. One fun exercise I've done was to just record a static A7 vamp and start playing regular mixolydian licks and then stretch out with the above ideas...after a while you can really hear that A7 chord being pulled all over the place as you introduce the alterations...but it still sounds like A7 if you resolve it strongly.
Members jonfinn Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 Try these: Major Modes in C Melodic Minor Modes in C Harmonic Minor Modes Harmonic Major Modes
Members gennation Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 boils down to using the Melodic minor over Dom7 chords either: A fourth up A fifth up A half step up A whole step down All very cool and useful ways of adding tension to either static or functional Dom7 chords. This does go past the One Scale, Two Application idea but the two I listed (a half step up, a fifth up) are the most common for getting started. To go beyond the two you need to understand that IIm, IV, V, and VIIm7b5 all sit in the "Dominant side" of a Key. They are all used as a path TO THE TONIC, which could be I, IIIm, or VIm. So, the I, IIIm, VIm all sit in the "Tonic side" of the Key. All of those you've listed work against altered, inverted, extended, and rootless type Dom7 chords which can be related back to the IIm, IV, V, and VIIm7b5. So, in this case Don is teaching "One scale, multiple applications". But those two I mentioned will get your head in place to understand the other possible "rules". One fun exercise I've done was to just record a static A7 vamp and start playing regular mixolydian licks and then stretch out with the above ideas...after a while you can really hear that A7 chord being pulled all over the place as you introduce the alterations...but it still sounds like A7 if you resolve it strongly. This is exactly what I'm doing in that video I posted. It sits in the A Mixolydian realm but spreads out the A Lydian Dominant, A Diminished/A H-W, A Phrygian Dominant, A Whole Tone, and then some m3 parallel moves and chromatic moves found in each. It just kind of spirals out. But, ah-ah...I don't really use the "half step up" idea, because that static A7 chord goes no where. IOW, it's not functioning as a V7 at all, but as a I7 (all of those other scales can work nicely over a I7!)
Members GreenAsJade Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 The last few posts are all in the context of there being 7th chords all over the place. Then what? So how do you make the connection from all that wisdom above (supposing I could absorb it!) into application where 7th chords are rare? Thanks! GaJ
Members GreenAsJade Posted October 14, 2009 Members Posted October 14, 2009 Make sure to learn them in relation to the chords you'll be playing them over. Before I read "The Jazz Theory Book" I would have had a dim if any realistic idea of what this sentence meant. Now I have an inkling ... enough to know that there's a lot to know. I do think that people interested in new scales and how they fit with chords could do well to read that book. GaJ
Members Jasco Posted October 15, 2009 Members Posted October 15, 2009 Before I read "The Jazz Theory Book" I would have had a dim if any realistic idea of what this sentence meant.GaJ That was my one sentence version of what a lot of the other posters have been expanding on in detail.
Members mosiddiqi Posted October 15, 2009 Members Posted October 15, 2009 The last few posts are all in the context of there being 7th chords all over the place.Then what? So how do you make the connection from all that wisdom above (supposing I could absorb it!) into application where 7th chords are rare?Thanks!GaJ It's a good question GaJ...in my opinion if you are more in the straight ahead rock world where powerchords and the pentatonic scales rule...you can still use these ideas to create colour in your solo's. An A5 powerchord for example doesn't even guide you with regards to Major or Minor..it can be whatever you like..depending on the next chord, the feel of the song, the melody etc....try experimenting with recording an A5 rock style vamp..and go crazy with it!...just think melody and remember to keep bringing it back to a strong "A" resolve. If I get a chance later/this weekend, I'll post a clip of me attempting this to give you an idea of some of the options...
Members gennation Posted October 15, 2009 Members Posted October 15, 2009 The last few posts are all in the context of there being 7th chords all over the place.Then what? So how do you make the connection from all that wisdom above (supposing I could absorb it!) into application where 7th chords are rare?Thanks!GaJ When you don't have the 7th you need to flush out the extended harmonies on your own, this is actually true for any chord, to make sure YOU are on top of the applied harmony. Of course look at the chords function, "is it a V chord or not" that a great place to start. If it is a V chord then use a Dominant based chord. If it's not the V chord, is it the I chord, or the IV chord? If so, use the correct function for it with in the Key. When the chord is a I chord, as in you flushed out the extended harmonies as Imaj7 or I7, then play modally...Lydian for a Imaj7 or ALL those different Dominant scales. But remember, the Super Locrian, or the "Melodic Minor up a half step" is really best used when the Dominant chord is a V7 moving to a I chord. Personal note...a lot of times over a straight Major triad that's functioning outside the Key (as in not a I, IV, or V chord) I find Dominant Phrygian almost always sounds good. Reason being...if the chord is not from the Key the Root it very prominent at the time and the b9 of the Phryg Dom scale is where the tension lives. The 'altered' from the other scale where the b5 is involved is usually based on the "b5 substitution", again a V7 leading to a I chord. So, if a dom7 chord built a half step above the Tonic doesn't sound right, then "altered" is not the way to go. And this is where the Phyg Dom scale will work most of the time... let me try and explain this again... In Lydian Dom, the H-W scale, and the Whole tone scale you have a chord you can build on the b5 of the Dom7 chord. But, in Phryg Dom and Mixolydian YOU DON"T have a chord you can build on the b5 of the Dom7 chord. So for quick analysis, if there's no chord you can find on the b5 of the Dom7 chord, DON'T use a scale that contains a b5. Remember though, is you find your straight Major chord has a b5 and a M7 Interval that extends out nicely, that b5 is really a #11 and then straight Lydian comes into play. I know I didn't explain this very good but read it a few times. Just remember to look for function and use your ear to extend the chord out further. This is where most of the mystery goes away.
Members gennation Posted October 15, 2009 Members Posted October 15, 2009 The last few posts are all in the context of there being 7th chords all over the place.Then what? So how do you make the connection from all that wisdom above (supposing I could absorb it!) into application where 7th chords are rare?Thanks!GaJ I should follow up with this also... If you are using all power chords in the tune/progression, take only the Roots and 5th's of each chord and line them up linearly to create a deadringer scale for the whole progression. Of course you can add the thirds in there too to figure out the larger scale, but the scale you get with just the Roots and 5th's will actually sound more musical. More on this can be found here: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/using-the-chords-to-help-you-find-a-scale-to-use-t20.html
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