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Does this make sense?


Nealbd

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Posted

I need some help figuring out why my alternate picking is so terrible. I can down pick consecutive 8th notes at 180 bpm. I can up-pick consecutive 8th notes at around 160 bpm (single string). I can alternate pick at about 102 bpm. What the heck is wrong?

I read once that alternate picking is as simple as catching the string on the way up after a downstroke, but obviously this isn't the case. I would think that my alternate picking would be faster given the speed at which I can execute upstrokes and downstrokes. I just want to be able to play some old metallica etc. for fun, which requires a lot of single string alternate picking.

I've used heavy and light picks, and it does not make a difference. I use my wrist for both straight down picking and up-picking. When I alternate pick I can go much faster using my elbow, but my arm becomes so stiff that I can't switch strings. I try to use my wrist, but then I'm slow. Please help me!

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Posted

With alternate picking you have hopefully equal reciprocating strokes. With single direction picking,one half of that cycle is to reset only. Two very different sets of motion.

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Posted

Thanks for the reply. How do I move from a fast upstroke to get myself back to reset position for downpicking to an upstroke of the same speed that makes contact with the string for alternate picking? I hope this question makes sense. I've been playing slow and relaxed, but it seems like I will forever be playing slow and relaxed.

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Posted

 

Thanks for the reply. How do I move from a fast upstroke to get myself back to reset position for downpicking to an upstroke of the same speed that makes contact with the string for alternate picking? I hope this question makes sense. I've been playing slow and relaxed, but it seems like I will forever be playing slow and relaxed.

 

 

Don't expect to turn into Paul Gilbert overnight. It takes time, as does everything involving muscle memory.

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Posted

When you say you can do 8th notes at 180bpm, does this mean that you set something clicking at 180 clicks per minute, then do 8 notes per click?

 

(Obviously this is what it seems to mean, I'm just checking we're all talking about the same thing).

 

It is definitely the case that you have your muscles more "engaged" doing alternate picking than single up/down strokes. In fact, you're having to coordinate the turning on and off of opposing pairs of muscles with fine control for alternate picking, it's not really suprising that it seems harder: it requires finer control, but ultimately delivers finer movements.

 

This should also shed light on why being fast at single strokes in each direction doesn't help being fast at alternate as much as you would like. You have to learn something new for your muscle memory for alternate picking.

 

So I think you need to say "dang, something new to learn, I'm at the beginning", and expect it to take something like as long as it did to get your single strokes fast.

 

GaJ

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Posted

Thanks GreenAsJade. Yes, I have a metronome clicking at 180 beats per minute. By 8th notes I'm referring to two notes per click. In a 4/4 rhythm that would be 8 notes in four beats. If I could alternate pick at the same speed, I would be hitting 4 times per click, or 16th notes. Sorry for the confusion. I guess the thing that I find hard to understand is that in order to do continuous down strokes, you need to use an upstroke to bring the pick back into position. If I can bring the pick up that fast not hitting the string, why is it so hard to bring the pick back up and hit the string without slowing down so much? I understand that there would be friction, but is it really that much? What can I do to reduce the friction on my up stroke?

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Posted

It's not friction, it's muscle control.

 

In downstrokes, you require no fine control of the return up stroke.

 

In alternate picking you have to have fine control of when and where the

downstroke stops and the upstroke starts.

 

Take a look at the end of the pick. In continuous downstrokes, I bet your upstroke is ending up over the next string _not_ only just above the target string. But in alternate picking, you have to make just the smallest movement possible across the target string in both directions. And even if your downstroking has fine control on the upstsroke as well, think about the tension. In downstroking, you need no tension in your muscles on the upstroke. In alternate picking, you are having to alternate tension back and forth between muscle groups, rather than just turning it on and off. It's fundamentally a more complex thing for your muscles to coordinate. I think :)

 

If I could alternate pick at the same speed, I would be hitting 4 times per click, or 16th notes.

 

This makes no sense at all. The speed at which you do something is not defined by the way you do it. If you could alternate pick at the same speed then by definition you would be picking the notes ... at the same speed.

 

Are you actually trying to produce notes at twice the speed using alternate picking that you produce them using downstrokes?

 

GaJ

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Posted

Yes, I meant that if I was catching the upstokes I would be playing twice as many notes at the same tempo as I would using purely downstrokes. The way I wrote it didn't make sense. I guess I need to figure out how to make the transistion from down to up without tension. I guess it's the stopping and starting of the tiny motion required to alternate pick fast that causes tension. Thanks.

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Posted

So - you know how you said that you can "downstroke at 8th notes 160bpm", but you can "only alternate pick at 102bpm"

 

Do you really mean that you can downstroke 8th notes at 160bpm, and you're disappointed that you can only get 8th notes at 204bpm out of alternate picking? Is it that you think that because you can downstroke at 160bpm, you should be able to have all the upstrokes making a sound as well at the same speed, so really you should be able to get 8th notes at 320bpm out of alternate picking?

 

It's interesting that it seems obviously the case that you won't be able to, but I can't quite say why. I think maybe our brains can only control fine movements at a certain rate? Wierd, now I think about it...

 

GaJ

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Posted

The whole issue is just a case of putting more time and effort into it.

 

Practice your picking skills 3-4 hours per day for 3-4 years and you'll be shred-o-riffic.

 

Make sure you're practicing accurately and paying attention to details the whole time.

 

Buy a book like Stetina's Mechanics of Speed if you're not sure what to practice or how to practice.

 

Then you too can join the multitudes of shred-heads.

 

Pretty easy really.

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Posted

So, Jasco, are you saying that time spent practicing is the only factor? I realize that there are a number of guitarists with very different techniques that can alternate pick very quickly, but is there really no "better" way to move your wrist etc? It seems that there must be a more efficient technique for picking. I'm not looking for anything magical, I realize that a lot of work is involved, but if I spend a lot of time practicing an inefficient motion it will take me a lot longer to achieve my goal.

Maybe I'm hoping for too much. Many other instruments have a more standardized approach to learning. I'm not trying to be a "shredder". I just want to play some songs that are currently impossible for me to play because I can't alternate pick fast enough. I'm too stubborn to believe that it's not possible. I want to make my practice time as efficient as possible. Please don't take my comments as sarcastic. I just want to know if there is a recognized way to alternate pick that I am unaware of that will help me improve. Thanks.

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Posted

As far as alternate picking goes, it's pretty simple in concept.

 

Pick down, pick up.

 

It just takes a lot of time to get the execution down well.

 

Be very aware of these three things:

 

1. Playing in time.

 

2. Both hands synchronized

 

3. Be very aware that you're still alternating during string crossings. Many folks naturally try to do a sweep (two downs or two ups) for some string crossings, and aren't aware that they are doing this.

 

 

That's really all there is to it.

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Posted

All I can add at this point is, you may have over developed your single direction strokes and may now have to develop therapeutic drills to undo any obstructive tensions that may be at work. (I think I mean stretching but it's difficult to tell) Stay slow and be patient.

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Posted

 

Stay slow and be patient.

 

 

This x a zillion.

 

..and as Jasco suggested, Stetina's "speed mechanics" is an excellent book to work with for this sort of thing.

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Posted

Typically "downpickers" do a lot of work from the elbow and the pick angle is pointed back towards the bridge. For alternate picking the technique is more of a wrist thing and typically the pick angle is down towards the neck.

 

I suspect your issue is one of technique so this is difficult to diagnose on a forum like this.

 

Having said that almost any technique can be made to work with enough practice. Just keep at it - your awareness of the issue is the first step to fixing it.

 

Good luck!

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