Questions about scales and keys...

[SmashedPotatoes]

Hey guys, I had some questions about scales I was hoping you could help me with....

 

This is what I (think) I understand about scales:

 

A) A scale is a collection of notes.

B) The interval/distance between each note determines the scale's type e.g. major, minor, major pentatonic, minor pentatonic etc.

C) The note that the scale is "centered on" (is at the start of the whole-step, half-step sequence) determines what "key" the scale is in. This note is called the root note.

 

There are some things I am curious about:

 

1) Depending on position, the root note is not always the lowest note in the scale. So when I play the scale, should I start and finish on the root note, or should I play every reachable note in that position?

 

2) How important is it to learn every fingering for each scale? From what I understand the different positions let you play a scale in the same key at different positions on the fretboard. Is this a useful skill to have? For example I've noticed that 95% of the time [blues and rock] guitarists use the first position pentatonic and the other 5% of the time they use position two. Are there any tricks for knowing which scales and positions I'm most likely to use and should practice? (I should mention I'm focusing on learning Blues, Rock, Funk and Country styles ... the blues'y sounding varieties)

 

3) How do we differentiate between scales/keys in different octaves? What language and/or music notation would we use to describe them? For example on guitar a scale of a particular name can be in one of two octaves, how does someone know which one I'm talking about?

 

4) How do you determine what key a song is in? Let's say someone says a song is in the key of A Major for example. Does that mean the song only uses notes from the A Major scale -- what does it mean if chords are involved? Also, what do we call it if the song happens to use one or more notes that do not belong to A Major while the rest do?

[D Elay]

what i know is that i only had 1 semester of music theory and once we sated using naturals and were talking maj/min 7ths, maj/maj 7ths it started to get confusing. It would have helped if i had my guitar in hand in class so i could remember what the fingering was for a 6th interval from c was at

learning the scale in the other positions besides the root opens a lot of doors because it changes your phrasing which is crucial so that you are not using the same licks for every solo

[Poparad]

. C) The note that the scale is "centered on" (is at the start of the whole-step, half-step sequence) determines what "key" the scale is in. This note is called the root note.

 

 

The only thing I'd add to this is that being in a key is not only centering on a single note, but centering on the harmony built from that note. The C major scale is centered on not just the note C, but also a C major chord.

 

 

1) Depending on position, the root note is not always the lowest note in the scale. So when I play the scale, should I start and finish on the root note, or should I play every reachable note in that position?

 

 

Starting and ending on the root will emphasize that more, but it's not necessary. If you wish to emphasize the root, you certainly can, although there will be plenty of times where you'll want to move above or below that note, so be sure to know where all of the notes are that can be reached in a position.

 

 

2) How important is it to learn every fingering for each scale? From what I understand the different positions let you play a scale in the same key at different positions on the fretboard. Is this a useful skill to have? For example I've noticed that 95% of the time [blues and rock] guitarists use the first position pentatonic and the other 5% of the time they use position two. Are there any tricks for knowing which scales and positions I'm most likely to use and should practice? (I should mention I'm focusing on learning Blues, Rock, Funk and Country styles ... the blues'y sounding varieties)

 

 

Fingers just give you more options and alternatives. If one position isn't as comfortable to play a certain lick in, another position might work better. In a particular key, perhaps one position is just too low, and you might use a different position to play higher notes in the scale.

 

 

3) How do we differentiate between scales/keys in different octaves? What language and/or music notation would we use to describe them? For example on guitar a scale of a particular name can be in one of two octaves, how does someone know which one I'm talking about?

 

 

There essentially is no different between playing a scale in one octave or another. Specifying the octave isn't usually done.

 

However, if you're writing a part with that scale and you want it to be in a certain octave, then simply write it out on a staff in musical notation. Each octave has one and only one spot in a clef.

 

Also, each note does have a octave specific name. The ones above middle C are C1, C2, C3, etc. The octave below is "little C" and the octave below that is "great C," if I recall correctly. I learned that in freshman music theory in college, and in 8 years of being a professional musician now, I haven't used it since then. My point is that while it's not widely used, there is a standardized system for naming the octave a note is in.

 

 

4) How do you determine what key a song is in? Let's say someone says a song is in the key of A Major for example. Does that mean the song only uses notes from the A Major scale -- what does it mean if chords are involved? Also, what do we call it if the song happens to use one or more notes that do not belong to A Major while the rest do?

 

 

In the strictest sense, something in the key of A major will only used notes and chords from the key of A major. However, it's common to see an outside chord woven in here and there, without the sense of A major being the tonic being disrupted in anyway. However, the more that's added from outside the key, the more the tonic is blurred. When exactly you'd stop calling it in the key of A is a highly subjective grey area.

 

Also, as I said at the top, being in the key of A major would not just mean that the note A would be emphasized as the tonic, but the A major chord would be emphasized, though chord progressions, as well. You can't have a key without harmony.

[SmashedPotatoes]

Wow, thanks for the great reply.

 

 

In the strictest sense, something in the key of A major will only used notes and chords from the key of A major. However, it's common to see an outside chord woven in here and there, without the sense of A major being the tonic being disrupted in anyway. However, the more that's added from outside the key, the more the tonic is blurred. When exactly you'd stop calling it in the key of A is a highly subjective grey area. Also, as I said at the top, being in the key of A major would not just mean that the note A would be emphasized as the tonic, but the A major chord would be emphasized, though chord progressions, as well. You can't have a key without harmony.

 

 

I've noticed that the key of a song can often be determined by the first note/chord in the song. Is this usually the case?

[Poparad]

So (for example) the G Major scale will be harmonized with the G Major (barre) chord. Though contrary to my intuition I noticed that not all the notes in the G Major are part of the G major scale. What is going on? I suspect the explanation has something to do with the magic of intervals.

 

 

Yes, intervals have something to do with it. Just as the note 'G' is not the only note in a G major scale, the chord 'G major' is not the only chord in a G major scale. There are as many chords for a scale as there are notes. Since the major scale has 7 notes, there are 7 chords you can make from it. In the key of G major, the G major chord is just one of those seven.

 

 

 

I've noticed that the key of a song can often be determined by the first note/chord in the song. Is this usually the case?

 

 

This is frequently the case, but note 100% of the time. We do tend to hear the first note/chord in a song as the tonic, though in the hands of a good composer, they might fool you a little bit by not starting on the tonic, but eventually resolving to it a few chords later. However, most of the time, the first chord in a progression does tend to be the same as the key.

[GreenAsJade]

Poperad covered heaps, really well.

 

 

4) How do you determine what key a song is in? Let's say someone says a song is in the key of A Major for example. Does that mean the song only uses notes from the A Major scale -- what does it mean if chords are involved?

 

I will just add one thing.

 

You can determine what song a key is in like this: write out the notes that are in each chord that are in the song. Assemble the notes in alphabetical order. See what scale you have. That is the key.

 

For example, suppose the song has this progression: Dm7 G

 

Dm7: D F A C

G: G B D

 

Rearrange (throw away doubles)

 

A B C D F G

 

What scale do these come from?

 

Well, it could be C major (which also has an E in it).

 

Or it could be A minor.

 

So even though there was no C chord in the progression, and no Am chord, the song is in C major or Am.

 

In reality other knowledge will tell you that the progression is probably a ii -V, which means Dm7 is playing the role of the ii, and the song certainly ain't in Am.

 

But even if you made the wrong choice, for almost all intents and purposes (at least basic ones) it wouldn't matter because if (for example) you were soloing with notes from Am these are the same notes as C major, so you'd be sounding OK. You would find, if you made the wrong choice, that the tonality of the song would be pulling you in a different direction. For example, if you chose Am, and pulled out the Am pentatonic, you'd find that things kept sounding good when you come back to the C in that scale.

 

Also, what do we call it if the song happens to use one or more notes that do not belong to A Major while the rest do?

 

Jazz

 

We call it "creativity" if it sounds good. And these notes are called "outside" notes.

 

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

BTW, the next thing you will need to know is "So how do I know which chords come from a given key/scale"

 

Luckily the answer to that is in a thread right near here

 

GaJ