Transcribing Atonal Music - Atonal Ear Training?

[mcmurray]

Anyone got any tips?

 

I'm wondering if I should do some interval recognition exercises (tried before, didn't have any joy), or practice sight singing with fixed 'do' solfege (I've had some success with this method).

 

At the moment I can transcribe tonal stuff on the fly, and play exactly what I hear in my head on the fly as long as it's tonal and not too 'outside'. I developed this ability by sight singing and playing with movable 'do' solfege.

 

Are there any other methods of ear training that I should consider? I'm thinking sight reading using fixed 'do' solfege with unusual pieces of music should help, but I thought I'd get some advice from the experts first, i.e. you guys.

 

Has anyone here used this book? http://www.amazon.com/Modus-Novus-Lars-Edlund/dp/084644156X

[Poparad]

I would definitely recommend doing interval training, as intervallic motions, especially wide ones (larger than an octave), are one of the fundamental components to atonal music. Other than that, just transcribe, transcribe, transcribe. Like any style, once you get more of the vocabulary in your ears and under your fingers, it gets easier to do it.

[mcmurray]

Here's the thing, If I were to force myself to transcribe an 'outside' melody right now, I'd use movable 'do' because that's the way my brain is currently wired, every time the key would modulate I'd just change the 'do' in my mind to suit. If it were completely atonal (think Shostakovich), I wouldn't know where to start, or at least I'd have to take it very slowly. I'm wondering if there's a more efficient way.

 

I'm after a technique or a way of training my ear (for example, fixed 'do') that would be more suited to atonal music. I will get started with interval training, thanks for the tip. The problem I have with intervals though, is that the same interval to me will sound completely different depending on the context it's used in a key. For example, a perfect 4th from C to F in piece of music in C major to me sounds nothing like G to C in the same piece, even though their both the same interval - I can't seem to separate the raw interval from the key if you follow me. Maybe in an atonal piece with no key center, this would be easier.

 

I'll try sight-singing with fixed 'do' aswell, as I'm convinced that if I can get my head around that, I'll be able to transcribe or play anything.

 

What approach do you take to transcribing Poparad? Do you pick out intervals, solfege or do you just hear it and write it down without thinking? Do you know of any good texts on the subject?

[WTF?]

Learn by example...

 

Start working with some Minor Keys, it'll show you how straight chromatic intervals are used to create melodies...like circus/carnival music.

 

Learn some of the music from Carmen, or the underlying melody to the Elephant Man theme song, or some Raymond Scott stuff. You'll find just about anything pieced to together over, or under, a Minor Key works nicely. Here's "example"...

 

Listen to the underlying chromatic type line here at 2:20...

 

4jYMHb1mtvw

 

JEGWJOkPxdc

 

YfDqR4fqIWE

 

Start making this type of music your regular routine and you'll see a TON more possibilities than ever before. You'll find some serious freedom in what you can do over Minor Keys.

 

Also listen to some free jazz stuff like mid-60's Eric Dolphy, or Ornette Coleman, later Coltrane.

 

Listen to the xylophone here at about 6:30 and continue through the end of that clip...

MtSqub3HUYs

 

Seriously though...you need to latch onto this music to realize what freedom you really do have when playing and how to let yourself follow yourself and let yourself find melodies that aren't predetermined by basic "this scale goes with this chord" concepts.

 

Get this music in your blood. Listen to it over and over, it WILL rub off on you. But also remember, not everyone will like the avant-garde stuff But those first three great Minor examples I posted, that is some classic music that's etched in your brain from childhood...and it sounds "right"...and everyone kind of likes it...it sets a mood that's not so avant-garde as a Dolphy or late Coltrane.

 

Start learning melodies, you'll find it's a lot different than learning scales and chord concepts.

 

If you need help learning any of these pieces let me know.

[girevik]

I've heard good things about Modus Novus but have no direct experience.

 

This is the book we used in Music Fundamentals class when our professor decided we were ready for atonal ear training and sight singing:

 

 

The prof made us get away from solfege altogether when we got to this stage, because the book is based on musical set theory instead of solfege. So for intervals, we used interval classes instead of traditional interval names. For example, we said "interval class 3" instead of "minor 3rd" - because 3 is the number of half steps in a minor 3rd. Thinking in interval class names instead of traditional intervals actually makes theory easier to apply to guitar, because you can see that a minor 3rd (interval class 3) is 3 frets apart, a major 3rd (interval class 4) is 4 frets apart, etc. The prof made us sing the intervals of the chromatic scale up and down like this:

 

"C Db C - Minor 2nd - 1

C D C - Major 2nd - 2

C Eb C - Minor 3rd - 3

...etc."

 

See the pattern? It's the notes first, then the traditional interval, then the interval class. We then sang back down in a similar manner. He made us do this every class, with the root note changed every time (D next time, F# next time after that, etc.).

 

I found atonal music easier to deal with once I got used to thinking in terms of interval classes instead of traditional intervals.

[lollygag]

^ +1

 

also, practice singing 3 and 4 note cells in all their permutations. using note numbers, start on 0-1-2, 0-1-3, 0-1-4... 0-1-6, 0-2-3, 0-2-4, 0-2-5, etc.

 

It seems pointless, but will work wonders in the long run.

[mcmurray]

Excellent answers guys, thank you. I would have never thought of this stuff!

 

Now, I wonder if I can find some ear training software that uses interval classes.

 

 

You'll find just about anything pieced to together over, or under, a Minor Key works nicely.

 

 

As I'm already very familiar with minor keys, this bit of advice should prove extremely helpful. I'll get started with that music you recommended.

[WTF?]

 

Excellent answers guys, thank you. I would have never thought of this stuff! Now, I wonder if I can find some ear training software that uses interval classes. As I'm already very familiar with minor keys, this bit of advice should prove extremely helpful. I'll get started with that music you recommended.

 

 

I'm broadcasting online right now here: http://www.justin.tv/guitarinstruction

 

I can show you that Elephant Man theme.

[mcmurray]

I'm at work and can't stream audio

 

I'll definitely check out your site asap.

[WTF?]

I'm only going to be on for a little bit longer

 

That's cool though. Work through those tunes that's the important thing.

[c+t in b]

i would learn a little bit about atonal music first. get the book post tonal theory by straus. its very dense but it is all inclusive

 

also there is a difference between chromaticism and atonal/serial music. one of the above posters seems like he was giving strange advice. learning chromaticism will help but its still tonal in practice

[mcmurray]

 

i would learn a little bit about atonal music first. get the book post tonal theory by straus. its very dense but it is all inclusive also there is a difference between chromaticism and atonal/serial music. one of the above posters seems like he was giving strange advice. learning chromaticism will help but its still tonal in practice

 

 

That's cool, I'm interested in transcribing chromatic as well as atonal music. I'll probably start with some chromatic stuff that is still somewhat tonal.

[girevik]

 

one of the above posters seems like he was giving strange advice.

 

 

Please feel free to clarify this statement as we are all here to learn. Also, one of the "above posters" now appears to be banned and probably cannot respond.

[c+t in b]

ok chromaticism is pretty much a way of embellishing chord tones. people dont just play a chromatic scale and call it a day. it evolved out of secondary dominants into a new way to approach chord tones. since were dealing with chord tones, its probably going to be some form of tonal music with a fixed center for a period of time. You can even do the above mentioned method of movable do and shifting it to new centers in tonal music. atonal ear training would rely on a great sense of relative pitch

 

the "chords" you find in serial music arent your typical chords as found in most western music. they are based on tiny cells that can transpose and invert on each other in an entirely different system of pitch organization

[girevik]

 

Excellent answers guys, thank you. I would have never thought of this stuff! Now, I wonder if I can find some ear training software that uses interval classes.

 

 

Let us know if you find any.

 

One possible caveat with the Friedmann book that I mentioned is that it was written for classroom usage - you and at least one partner are training each other with exercises/games so in effect you are your partner's "ear training software" and vice versa.

 

I should practice the solo ear training drill (which I also mentioned) more often myself, especially with my 40 min. each way driving commutes.

 

I occasionally practice sight singing out of the book Thesaurus of Scales and Musical Patterns by Slonimsky. The material is indeed hard as hell, but it's one of the best resources I've found for tonality-agonistic ear training practice.

 

And there's always transcription - transcribe an atonal/chromatic/polytonal/whatever melody as a sequence of interval classes instead of notes - or in addition to notes.

[3shiftgtr]

girevik brings it with the Friedman book...

 

When you say atonal, you don't mean micro-tonal do you?

 

Guess you'd say micro-tonal, but I'm just checking.....

 

All the stuff listed here (Dolphy, latter period Coltrane etc) is great, but please and for Heaven's sake, listen to John Zorn's "Naked City". It uses atonality in a very visual way. Bill Frisell gtr, John Zorn hrn, Wayne Horvitz kys, Joey Barron drms, Fred Frith bs.

[PigWings_v2.0]

fd