Members codecontra Posted November 13, 2009 Members Posted November 13, 2009 OK, I am starting to learn how to play harmonies. For example, I am recording a melody using an A natural minor scale, then moving the entire shape up 5 frets and playing over the original melody to achieve a perfect fourth harmony. What I don
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 It sounds like your going up a perfect fourth and playing the D natural minor scale when you should be playing D Dorian (no A#). Since your playing in A natural minor (relative major is C) Then your harmonies could be in thirds (C Ionian). 4th's D dorian (still all the notes in C major). 5th's E phrygian and on.
Members codecontra Posted November 14, 2009 Author Members Posted November 14, 2009 It sounds like your going up a perfect fourth and playing the D natural minor scale when you should be playing D Dorian (no A#). Since your playing in A natural minor (relative major is C) Then your harmonies could be in thirds (C Ionian). 4th's D dorian (still all the notes in C major). 5th's E phrygian and on. This doesn't make any sense to me. By what you are suggesting, I would simply be playing different modes of C major, not harmonizing a lead melody. For example, if I want to harmonize the F note in the Am scale with a perfect fourth, I would have to play an A#. Or am I missing something here.
Members codecontra Posted November 14, 2009 Author Members Posted November 14, 2009 Yes, the A# should be a B So are you saying that the perfect fourth of an F note is a B? I mean, what you are suggesting is that I harmonize an F note with a B, but I do not believe this is correct, but I could be wrong. I was reading a site about guitar harmonies and it said that you just move the notes up 5 frets to harmonize with a perfect fourth. Is this not correct?
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 Here's an a natural minor (abcdefg) harmonized with a d dorian (defgaBc) http://plunder.com/20d07b2995
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 sure the perfect fourth is an A#. But straight diatonic harmony forces the B on you. If your using a different minor scale (ex. harmonic minor) you will get the harmonies dictated by that scale. Harmonic minor in 4th's http://plunder.com/fd3dda9ac7
Members heavy D Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 So are you saying that the perfect fourth of an F note is a B?I mean, what you are suggesting is that I harmonize an F note with a B, but I do not believe this is correct, but I could be wrong.I was reading a site about guitar harmonies and it said that you just move the notes up 5 frets to harmonize with a perfect fourth. Is this not correct? It depends what you're trying to accomplish, but yes, generally that's incorrect. When you harmonize a line you'll want to do it so it fits the chord changes. This means thinking in terms of a key. Sure you can harmonize a line in 4ths, but not all of them will be perfect. I'd suggest doing this all in the same position (rather then sliding up or down how ever many frets). That way you can probably play both parts at the same time and see how they sound. But sometimes using perfect intervals is good for effect. The best rule here is to trust your ears.
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 A nat. min. harmonized with 3rd's and 5th's http://plunder.com/8fd60a40bc Kinda sounds like Brian May. ;>0
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 Ah hell, might as well add the 7th to that last one http://plunder.com/8eaf4d3971
Members Krank'N Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 Theres more than one way to skin a cat. A harmonized sequence may or may not be diatonic. It may or may not have parrallel or contrary motion or different groupings of each. Its about the relationships that occur over time and the consonance and dissonance . For every so called"rule" theres examples by famous composers breaking that rule! If it floats your boat then do it.
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 Theres more than one way to skin a cat. A harmonized sequence may or may not be diatonic. It may or may not have parrallel or contrary motion or different groupings of each. Its about the relationships that occur over time and the consonance and dissonance . For every so called"rule" theres examples by famous composers breaking that rule! If it floats your boat then do it. Yup
Members codecontra Posted November 14, 2009 Author Members Posted November 14, 2009 Well, I am a total noob when it comes to harmonizing leads, so let's start very simple. Is this site below NOT correct. This guy simply says to slide the scale up 5 frets for a perfect fourth and 7 frets for a perfect fifth harmony. Is this inaccurate?http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar-harmonizing.htm The perfect fourth interval, is achieved by harmonizing five frets up or down. The perfect fifth interval, is achieved by harmonizing seven frets up or down.
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 I've always started with diatonic harmony and built or altered from there. While the lesson is technically correct, I think you will here diatonic harmony more often in pop music. As has been said before and on that site, in the end your ears have to judge what is appealing to you and your music.
Poparad Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 Wow, this thread could be answered a lot more simplistically. Here's the simple answer: When creating harmonies, you create them within a scale. When you move up or down from the original melody, you do so remaining within the notes of the scale. Here are the notes of A natural minor: A B C D E F G A If you play a simple melody, like just going up the scale: A B C D E And you wish to harmonize that, simply start a certain number of notes higher in the scale, for example, starting on a C instead of an A: C D E F G Together, you get: Voice 2: C - D - E - F - GVoice 1: A - B - C - D - E When you harmonize melodies, you don't change scales for the different voices, but instead your remain in only one key. Since not every note in the scale is the same distance apart (most notes are a whole step, and two of them are only a half step), when you write a harmony part, it won't be exactly the same as the original. Depending on where those half steps show up, sometimes the interval will be larger and sometimes it will be smaller in the new harmony voice than it was in the original melody. In the example above, that difference shows up in the 3rd note of the melody. The original part moves up a half step from B to C, but the harmony part goes up a whole step from D to E.
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 I think I answered it simplistically. Even gave examples on the fly..............................But sadly no one listened to them......
Poparad Posted November 14, 2009 Posted November 14, 2009 I think I answered it simplistically. Even gave examples on the fly..............................But sadly no one listened to them......No offense, but I've been a professional jazz musician for years and have multiple music degrees, and your first post made my head spin a bit. When talking about simple diatonic harmony, it's adding more to the confusion to start mentioning modes. If the original poster is having trouble understanding how to diatonically harmonize something, it's pretty much a given that modes are beyond his understanding. Even if they weren't, I don't really see them as having anything to do with explaining diatonic harmony in the first place.
Members codecontra Posted November 14, 2009 Author Members Posted November 14, 2009 No offense, but I've been a professional jazz musician for years and have multiple music degrees, and your first post made my head spin a bit. When talking about simple diatonic harmony, it's adding more to the confusion to start mentioning modes. If the original poster is having trouble understanding how to diatonically harmonize something, it's pretty much a given that modes are beyond his understanding. Even if they weren't, I don't really see them as having anything to do with explaining diatonic harmony in the first place. So Poparad, can you explain to me what the guy is stating in the site below? Is he incorrect? Oversimplifying? I mean, he is basically stating to just play the same thing 7 frets up and you will be playing a perfect fifth harmony a la Iron Maiden............. which would give a noob like me the impression that I could just move a scale up 7 frets to harmonize the melody. http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar-harmonizing.htmSomeone on the site above mentioned that this would be parallel 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths. Not diatonic. So maybe that is what I am misunderstanding, but I would like to know the difference. When a band like Maiden or Metallica plays harmonies, how do they approach it? Like the guy on this site is saying (just moving the scale up 7 frets) or like you guys are saying to do here and harmonize within a specific key?
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 I think you should start harmonizing within a specific key. This is the most common and builds a framework to work from.
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 This........ "Wow, this thread could be answered a lot more simplistically. Here's the simple answer: When creating harmonies, you create them within a scale. When you move up or down from the original melody, you do so remaining within the notes of the scale. Here are the notes of A natural minor: A B C D E F G A If you play a simple melody, like just going up the scale: A B C D E And you wish to harmonize that, simply start a certain number of notes higher in the scale, for example, starting on a C instead of an A: C D E F G Together, you get: Code: Voice 2: C - D - E - F - GVoice 1: A - B - C - D - E When you harmonize melodies, you don't change scales for the different voices, but instead your remain in only one key. Since not every note in the scale is the same distance apart (most notes are a whole step, and two of them are only a half step), when you write a harmony part, it won't be exactly the same as the original. Depending on where those half steps show up, sometimes the interval will be larger and sometimes it will be smaller in the new harmony voice than it was in the original melody. In the example above, that difference shows up in the 3rd note of the melody. The original part moves up a half step from B to C, but the harmony part goes up a whole step from D to E." Is easier than this Maestro??? "It sounds like your going up a perfect fourth and playing the D natural minor scale when you should be playing D Dorian (no A#). Since your playing in A natural minor (relative major is C) Then your harmonies could be in thirds (C Ionian). 4th's D dorian (still all the notes in C major). 5th's E phrygian and on."
Members 1001gear Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 IMO if info sites don't hand you the cart before the horse, you (John Q You) would put it there intuitively. Just learn Harmony through a proper curriculum. It's all in there: Keys, scales, progressions, voicings, VOICE LEADING, rhythm, melody, the 400 or so years it evolved, yada yada.
Members GreenAsJade Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 I think I answered it simplistically. Even gave examples on the fly..............................But sadly no one listened to them......I loved'em!I agree with Pop, though, that bringing in modes was a complex thing to do: I don't understand your first post at all. What I mean is, I don't have the knowledge to understand it without a lot of effort.I think the simpler answer to the OPs post has been given, buried a little: the advice he read was technically correct, but not the way you normally harmonize.You can harmonize in perfect 4ths using the advice you read. It's just not the way it's normally done. As Pop's (long ) explanation said, instead of harmonizing with a fixed interval in terms of semitones, harmonize with notes from the scale that are a fixed number of note apart.GaJEdit: actually, what your first post says suddenly clicked with me! But it does require a lot of knowledge (for us theory noobs) to get it.
Members jeremy_green Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 To keep the theme of simplicity alive! Most bands do as Poperad suggests - stay within the key's scale. So you will need to alter the fingering pattern somewhat. Sure you can slide it up the neck to maintain the string sets you are playing it on but a note here and there will need to be adjusted. By doing this it doesnt clash with the underlying chords ever. If you just slide the patter up and play it there run take the chance of some clashin note with the rhythm section. Mind you if it is simple power chords of little chord movement you may be able to "just slide it up and play it" - this is where your ears and judgement comes into play. Does it sound good? If so it IS good
Members stomias Posted November 14, 2009 Members Posted November 14, 2009 In retrospect I guess knowing the strong opinions on modes here that I shouldn't have brought them up. Everyone comes at this from a different angle and I am no different. I know a bit about modes and theory POP. I studied with William Russo (Chicago Jazz ensemble) who, dead, knows more about theory than all of us here combined. Also studied harmony under Theodore Berg second chair pianist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Alan Swain jazz academic of the highest caliber. I've toured the globe several times and played with many famous world caliber musicians...Wynton Marsalis, Neville Bros., Dexter Gordon, Buddy Guy to name just a few. I've seen how disparite groups of musicians attack theory, playing and improvising so I have a wee bit of history and education myself.
Members codecontra Posted November 14, 2009 Author Members Posted November 14, 2009 In retrospect I guess knowing the strong opinions on modes here that I shouldn't have brought them up. Everyone comes at this from a different angle and I am no different. I know a bit about modes and theory POP. I studied with William Russo (Chicago Jazz ensemble) who, dead, knows more about theory than all of us here combined. Also studied harmony under Theodore Berg second chair pianist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Alan Swain jazz academic of the highest caliber. I've toured the globe several times and played with many famous world caliber musicians...Wynton Marsalis, Neville Bros., Dexter Gordon, Buddy Guy to name just a few. I've seen how disparite groups of musicians attack theory, playing and improvising so I have a wee bit of history and education myself. Stomias, I think you are taking this thing a bit too personal. Having said that, I do appreciate your input. I think I get it now with the help of everyone involved. I guess what I was looking for was something like, "that site is technically correct, but not really the way it is normally done". That finally came out and now it is starting to add up. I think the guy that wrote the article on the site is doing noobs a disservice by making it sound like all you have to do is move a scale up 5 or 7 frets to harmonize. He even says, "This is what we are so use to hearing Irion Maiden guitarists do." If this is not accurate, then he should not be teaching this method.
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