Members MetalJon Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 I've noticed that scales take a bit more of a beating around here than I would otherwise expect. Obviously, I agree with sentiments like, "Don't make scales 100% of your practice," but at the same time I've seen a number of people say things like, "You should really spend time playing music, not playing scales." I really think these kinds of comments miss the point. The purpose of practicing scales is so you can ultimately play music. Unless you practice them, learn the shapes, and build up the technique, you will not be able to apply your melodic ideas to the instrument. Coming up with musical ideas is the easy part (well, for me it is). The hard part is translating that to the instrument. There is no easy road. The other thing that jumps out at me is some people have the wrong idea of what "scales" are. Or maybe I use the term differently than everyone else. When I talk about scales I don't mean simply running up and down the patterns in an homogeneous fashion. For instance, always ascending and descending in the same way for each pattern. When I talk about scales I mean scale sequences, with straight runs being only one of several. Incorporating sequences like group of four, diatonic thirds, triplets, sextuplets (all legato and staccato) in addition to inversions (playing descending notes on each string while ascending the scale or vice versa) will help your phrasing tremendously. It also helps to integrate other techniques into scales. For example, when practicing legato sequences, incorporate tapping. Throw in some arps when working your scale patterns. Double-up on your practice. Something I like to do is to lace together rhythm and lead. I'll play a simple rhythm and incorporate scale fragments into it. For example, try a simple three chord progression, but in between each chord change, fire off six or eight notes from a scale pattern, play the next chord, and then play the next part of the scale pattern. This is a great exercise for metal riffs, where this sort of phrasing is often employed. I'm into tl;dr territory at this point, so I'll sum it up. Don't make scales the only thing you practice, but don't neglect them, either. Mix things up to keep it interesting, improve your phrasing, and help you link ideas and techniques together. And remember to always use a metronome.
Members girevik Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 Coming up with musical ideas is the easy part (well, for me it is). The hard part is translating that to the instrument. There is no easy road. Sadly, I must agree - I have not succeeded in finding an easier road. I translate my melodic idea to the instrument by playing it by ear. It's the same as hearing a melody while listening to the TV or iTunes, then playing by ear on guitar, except I'm hearing the melody inside my head instead of the TV. To me a scale is just a set of notes. A scale and a scale fingering pattern on the guitar are two different things to me. For example, CAGED gave me 5 fingering patterns for one scale to start with. It's 5 patterns, but still only one scale.
Members davidwebb Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 Why does it always seem to be a battle of Ear vs Scales. Personally i use both and i find that they actually synergistically help each other. When i play with other ppl, i find that my ear is almost always better and my knowledge of theory is superior where as when i only used one or the other i was actually below par.
Members scolfax Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 I took lessons for a couple of years when I was starting out, from a teacher who was in a heavy metal band and who took lessons from Satriani. For years I practiced three-notes-per-string scale patterns. Of course like a moron I never learned any songs or played music with anyone. Years later I started playing in a Classic Rock cover band. I can still play the three-notes-per-string scale patterns, but they feel completely useless to me in the context of the songs we play. I just can't make them sound musical. However, I did always attempt to be musical when learning pentatonic scale patterns. And I don't have the same problem improvising with those.
Members girevik Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 Why does it always seem to be a battle of Ear vs Scales. Personally i use both and i find that they actually synergistically help each other. When i play with other ppl, i find that my ear is almost always better and my knowledge of theory is superior where as when i only used one or the other i was actually below par. I see no battle here. Unless what you think is a "scale" is different than what I think or what MetalJon thinks.
Members paulinpoland Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 Everything is a major scale............with modifications, unless it's actually a major scale.I think the jazz guys have a good view of this scale business....the minor scale is a major scale with a flatted third, sixth and seventh, and so on. So they don't learn every scale individually, but relate the required scale the the major.Phrygian?Just work out the notes you need to flat in the major scale.The best theory site I've ever seen is:www.jacmuse.comThe author is a jazzer, but the site (it may have been recommended already in this forum....I'm new, so I don't know) is a marvel of knowledge and dedication! A must for anyone who is throwing themselves into theory.The author, Joe Craig, gives a free licence to do with the material what you will, non-commercially. I have the whole site downloaded. Midi audio for every example, everything works.....beautiful site, beautiful guy!
Members Virgman Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 You need to know the major scale, the blues scale, and the major and minor pentatonic scales. At least. So learn them scales.
Members Kuroyume Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 Learn them scales and then learn how to make music with them. I think the OP point about sequences is important. Then you need to invent 'riffs', use octave riffs, add bends, taps, etc., etc., etc. Bach and Mozart started with scales - and look at what they created with them! I think that backing tracks to experiment over with scales and solos are indispensible. Heck, take a song that you've learned and improvise your own solos over the recording using the scales used by the guitarist. What? You aren't allowed to experiment with an existing song? Never stopped Eddie, did it?
Members GreenAsJade Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 I had the same sort of "whoa, doubletake" experience the OP mentions, but when it comes down to it, I think it's about "different stages". I'd be truly astonished if the concensus was "don't worry about learning scales". Seriously, I've never heard anyone say that. I think that depending on the stage you're at, their importance is clearly different. So the way I've understood is is that senior people here are advising that once you're at a basic level of competence, there is so much more about being musical than just being a guru of scales, that they are at pains to make sure that readers here don't think they have a silver bullet by learning something that quite frankly is "the easy part" of learning to play well. The hard part is learning how to play musically, and this is where the concerns and focus of the good musicians out there is. They're past the basics of mechanics and into the problem of "now that I can manipulate the instrument, how do I make music". But then some of us are still at "how do I get my muscles to do the kinds of things I'll need them to", and I think this is where scales are a valuable tool. I think that "just don't fall into the trap of thinking they will make you a good musician" is the sense of "down on them" that we're picking up. GaJ
Members c+t in b Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 scales are fundamental. most people dont understand where the avoid notes are and thats why they hit sour notes. scales help you understand theory but playing them up and down like a computer doesnt help anything except for memorization. you have to learn how to play scales musically and that has more to do with landing on correct spots. a better approach to composing/improvising music outside of the classical realm is by following chord tones, which are still derived from scales most of the people who tell you not to study scales probabaly cant play a 3 octave version on their instrument anywhere, nor could they pick a scale and find a new pattern for it each time. i doubt they can read music or have the fretboard memorized in terms of notes. most of them are usually stuck in positions they cant get out of other than by moving to new positions
Moderators Jed Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 There are lot's of varying perspectives relative to scales and as we progress our perspectives often change in ways that appear to conflict with our earlier perspectives. Imagine an absolute beginner wants to learn how to solo. Since he doesn't know anything all you can do is lead him to a scale pattern appropriate for the song and suggest he "mess around" with this (particular) scale (fingering). So he walks away having learned that there is a particular scale (fingering pattern and location) for this particular song and by extension he thinks that the same is true for all songs and all guitarists. Compare that with the budding jazz student who's taught to think in terms of chord scales (eg for every chord there is one scale that can be said to define the chord). By this time the jazz student should know lot's of different scales (by formulae) and knows that there are many fingering patterns for each scale (although he may not "know" all the fingerings, he's aware that they exist). So this guy walks away having learned that there is a particular scale (formula) for each chord, and by extension he thinks he has to learn every scale for every chord in every key, and his playing may be quite scalar. Now obviously this is a lot of work, so this player might just practice and learn his scales in terms of one pattern per chord scale. Not the best strategy but reasonable given the task before him and his level of understanding. Now imagine the harmonic / chord tone based player. This guy knows his chords (by formula) and some of his chord spellings but may not know all of his keys well. He should be aware of lot's of different arps for each chord and should know how these arps relate to scale fingering (and hence the chord scales and modes). But the level of complexity before him is huge. So he may hang onto the "one scale per passage" or "one scale (form) per chord" approach for survival sake. My personal strategy is this: Keys, scales, modes, tonalities, fingerings, arpeggios and pentatonics are all just different ways to (partially) define the same thing. Each of these constructs are like snapshots that captures a single view at some point in time of a significantly more rich and complicated thing. Each of these things is true and accurate given that specific point in time / circumstance but none of them alone tell the whole story. Trying to integrate all the chords with all the scales with all the positions in all the keys with all the fretboard knowledge with all the potential variations, in a musical way, is a hugely difficult road. Are scales important? Hell yes! But they are not the only road that leads to musicality and they are often so misunderstood that sometimes people say that scales (just running them up and down with no regard for these other concerns) is a bad thing. My current thinking is keys > chords > arps > pentatonic > scales. Each of these things needs to be known and understood completely and in their entirety, all over the fretboard and in relation to each other. But this just describes where I am at this particular time. It's not intended to be any kind of universal strategy. Each person needs to find there own way through the forest. Each of us has a completely unique view of music theory, what it does, how it works and how much understanding we need. No one can tell another what's right for them. All we can do is share our experiences and pick up little bits and pieces along our way. When someone says scales are bad, don't try to change their mind. Don't engage to win some message board debate. But do try to imagine why it is that they say that. What perspective, what thoughts are driving them to say such a thing? Who knows, you may learn something in the process that can help you along your way. Cheers,
Members paulinpoland Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 An excellent post! This cannot be pointed out too often.......to know all the chords, scales, keys etc, and be able to use the myriad of possibilities at will is an immense task, and requires years of study and dedication. But to know three chords and a handful of notes can get you a hit recording. All knowledge is good knowledge, and, as stated, learning shouldn't be a competition. Out there, in front of the people and giving it your all - that's the time to be competitive!
Members jeremy_green Posted December 25, 2009 Members Posted December 25, 2009 Jed - beautiful response. I have nothing to add to it other than supporting your position.
Members meganutt7 Posted December 27, 2009 Members Posted December 27, 2009 I've noticed that scales take a bit more of a beating around here than I would otherwise expect. Obviously, I agree with sentiments like, "Don't make scales 100% of your practice," but at the same time I've seen a number of people say things like, "You should really spend time playing music, not playing scales." I really think these kinds of comments miss the point.The purpose of practicing scales is so you can ultimately play music. Unless you practice them, learn the shapes, and build up the technique, you will not be able to apply your melodic ideas to the instrument. Coming up with musical ideas is the easy part (well, for me it is). The hard part is translating that to the instrument. There is no easy road.The other thing that jumps out at me is some people have the wrong idea of what "scales" are. Or maybe I use the term differently than everyone else. When I talk about scales I don't mean simply running up and down the patterns in an homogeneous fashion. For instance, always ascending and descending in the same way for each pattern. When I talk about scales I mean scale sequences, with straight runs being only one of several. Incorporating sequences like group of four, diatonic thirds, triplets, sextuplets (all legato and staccato) in addition to inversions (playing descending notes on each string while ascending the scale or vice versa) will help your phrasing tremendously.It also helps to integrate other techniques into scales. For example, when practicing legato sequences, incorporate tapping. Throw in some arps when working your scale patterns. Double-up on your practice. Something I like to do is to lace together rhythm and lead. I'll play a simple rhythm and incorporate scale fragments into it. For example, try a simple three chord progression, but in between each chord change, fire off six or eight notes from a scale pattern, play the next chord, and then play the next part of the scale pattern. This is a great exercise for metal riffs, where this sort of phrasing is often employed.I'm into tl;dr territory at this point, so I'll sum it up. Don't make scales the only thing you practice, but don't neglect them, either. Mix things up to keep it interesting, improve your phrasing, and help you link ideas and techniques together. And remember to always use a metronome. I haven't yet read the entire thread, but just this exposition makes me have a few things to say with respect to scale practice. If you practice running up and down a scale, you are doing very little for yourself other than playing that scale up and down at more rapid velocities. IF, however, you EXPLOER the scale and KNOW the scale, meaning, intervals, playing on one string, weird sequences, string skipping, etc. etc. ad nauseum, you really LEARN how to USE the scale.. THEN, when you have found something new that you like, PRACTICE THAT. Move it around diatonically, if you like. That is also technically "scale practice". But that is not what most people here refer to when saying "practicing scales". Most people run the scale up and down or play a 1-2-3-4 pattern (C,D,E,F; D,E,F,G, etc.) or some other variation. While this MAY be pertinent and stimulating passing material to get you from idea to idea, you will have very few ideas about scales if you just run them in major and minor seconds all day. But scales get TOO MUCH ATTENTION anyway. What about DYNAMICS? FEEL?? VIBRATO??? TONE??? ALTERNATIVE TECHNIQUES LIKE TAPPING, OR SLAP, OR HARMONICS??? TEMPO??? GROOVE??? PHRASING???? When we learn music, we think we need to know the SCALES first and know them WELL... So we play them up and down for a long time (I did this too, you know?!?!) thnking it will make us awesome... Not the case... The best {censored} you hear someone play is THEIR OWN IDEA... Not some fast run that is just something EVERYONE ELSE DOES ALL THE TIME, only faster, MAYBE... or cleaner, or whatever.. To me, it's alot more impressive to be able to play fast stuff that isn't just 1234,2345,3456,4567.... That is all I am saying.. I tkink that if we all approached it that way, we would become more musical faster and be more MUSICIANS than GUITAR PLAYERS.... That is all.
Members Phil Jacques Posted December 27, 2009 Members Posted December 27, 2009 after reading all of this.. I realize... I FAIL at guitar =( there is no helping my cause...
Members girevik Posted December 27, 2009 Members Posted December 27, 2009 after reading all of this.. I realize... I FAIL at guitar =(there is no helping my cause... I didn't even play guitar until I was 20. The road to musical bliss may be a long and hard one, but I've been having a lot of fun along the way, and that's what keeps me going.
Members MetalJon Posted December 27, 2009 Author Members Posted December 27, 2009 . . .IF, however, you EXPLOER the scale and KNOW the scale, meaning, intervals, playing on one string, weird sequences, string skipping, etc. etc. ad nauseum, you really LEARN how to USE the scale.. THEN, when you have found something new that you like, PRACTICE THAT. Move it around diatonically, if you like. That is also technically "scale practice". But that is not what most people here refer to when saying "practicing scales". Most people run the scale up and down or play a 1-2-3-4 pattern (C,D,E,F; D,E,F,G, etc.) or some other variation. While this MAY be pertinent and stimulating passing material to get you from idea to idea, you will have very few ideas about scales if you just run them in major and minor seconds all day.But scales get TOO MUCH ATTENTION anyway. What about DYNAMICS? FEEL?? VIBRATO??? TONE??? ALTERNATIVE TECHNIQUES LIKE TAPPING, OR SLAP, OR HARMONICS??? TEMPO??? GROOVE??? PHRASING????. . . Did you get a chance to read my entire post? I think you'll find that I've described almost exactly what you have here.
Members meganutt7 Posted December 27, 2009 Members Posted December 27, 2009 Jed,Excellent response to this thread... Really articulate and well thought out.metalJon, I did read your entire post and did not mean that YOU personally practice scales in the manner most often thought of when one says "practicing scales" but what MOST people think of when that phrase is uttered....I think that anyone who explores ANY theoretical or technical idea can reap great rewards from it, but it has to have a creative spark. You can use scalar material to fuel your playing, if you so choose... But MOST kids I know that start playing guitar, and want to be technically capable, start off wit this sequential sort of stuff where it's all only ordered scales (1234,2345,3456,4567,etc.) I am merely trying to save them all some time by telling them that that is not the way to go.. I mean you SHOULD do that too, if that is the type of sound you really want in your improvisations and playing.... I sometimes use it, if it's appropriate.... But I think that to geenrate melodic ideas and creative ones, ones that are stamped with your particular brand of thinking, you need to explore a scale as a pool of notes with no pre-designated order or consequence. Know what I mean???Again, I saw you mentioned it aiding in technique, etc. But for instance, when we think of sweeps, how many of us think of a simple triad arpeggio that is swept, and how many think of pretty much ANY combination of notes including but not limited to fourths, 7th chord arpeggios, fifths, other intervals, etc.??? Not many.. I am merely putting it out there that there is more to it than what you hear from your friends is the criteria for being a Bitchin' Guitarist....That's all, man.. no malice...
Members BydoEmpire Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 I agree with the original post, but it seems like some people just learn the scales (and often, like you said, just play straight them up and down) and don't learn how to actually use them in the context of a song or melodic solo. I think that partial knowledge leads some people to be down on learning "scales." They're only learning words, not how to construct a sentence with those words.
Members paulinpoland Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Re scale practice, how about this, which is a barrel of laughs! Take, say, a major scale, and start with the root, but.......go DOWN the scale whilst restricting yourself to moving horizontally or vertically UPWARDS on the neck. No going back down! It isn't musical. but it shows you how automatic scale practice can become. It helped me memorise the notes on the fretboard, by saying each note out loud as I played. Also, it forces you to do leaps and stretches you might otherwise not do, in the more usual kind of scale practice.
Members NixerX Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Re scale practice, how about this, which is a barrel of laughs!Take, say, a major scale, and start with the root, but.......go DOWN the scale whilst restricting yourself to moving horizontally or vertically UPWARDS on the neck. No going back down!It isn't musical. but it shows you how automatic scale practice can become. It helped me memorise the notes on the fretboard, by saying each note out loud as I played. Also, it forces you to do leaps and stretches you might otherwise not do, in the more usual kind of scale practice. This an excellent exercise. It forces you to think outside the box.
Members meganutt7 Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Re scale practice, how about this, which is a barrel of laughs! Take, say, a major scale, and start with the root, but.......go DOWN the scale whilst restricting yourself to moving horizontally or vertically UPWARDS on the neck. No going back down! It isn't musical. but it shows you how automatic scale practice can become. It helped me memorise the notes on the fretboard, by saying each note out loud as I played. Also, it forces you to do leaps and stretches you might otherwise not do, in the more usual kind of scale practice. This is precisely what I mean... When you practice scales the "traditional" way that most guitarists do, you don't ever really SEE the neck the way a pianist sees the keyboard... Where you can SEE all the melodies you want to hear before playing one solitary note.... Doing exercises like the one Paul suggested or the ones I or MetalJon discussed MAY help to improve a guitarists "vision" when it comes to seeing things on the neck and "hearing" them before blurting them out.It's not easy or quick for most, but I beleive it is an essential step if you want to be a serious musician who understands the inner workings of harmony, melody and all that nonsense.
Members paulinpoland Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Take, say, a major scale, and start with the root, but.......go DOWN the scale whilst restricting yourself to moving horizontally or vertically UPWARDS on the neck. No going back down! And vice versa of course....playing UP the scale in a downward direction, horizontally and vertically.
Members Blackface Posted December 28, 2009 Members Posted December 28, 2009 Whether you learn formally or informally ("by ear") about scales, chords and the structure of music you're using it when you play.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.