Members paulinpoland Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 I want, at last, to try out some jazz-style picking on my electric, and would appreciate any advice. I'm okay with the theory, I just need to start using it! Specifically, re the attached example............. Is this too difficult as a starting exercise? I quite like it, but I'm finding it a lot harder than it looks! I am wondering if there are specific exercises to help build up "smoothness", or does that just come with time? I can pick it slowly, but rather like I'm flicking bits of dirt off the strings with the plec . Note: the piece comes from the Band in a Box jazz practice section, the notation and sound from Guitar Pro 5 with RSE archtop jazz guitar, and the sound file was edited with Cool Edit Pro, original version. Graphics (the chord names) courtesy of Microsoft "Paint". With Reason, Edirol Hyper Canvas and ten million plug-ins, it's all you need! These programs are excellent together, especially for organising practice material. Guitar Pro 5 is well worth the money.
Members Virgman Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Not quite sure I understand your question, Paul. If you are having trouble playing it just slow down until you get it and speed up gradually. Playing 8th notes is fine.
Members 1001gear Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Nuther thing, SHUFFLE. Learn to pick this rhythm smoothly. Up and down.
Members gennation Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 I'm doing this from ear, but your first few notes are 5th's moving in 4th's...this is pretty much the intro to Bright Sized Life by Pat Metheny. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV52_eoJCjo You might try stepping away from the "exercise" and moving what you're doing into playing a great tune.
Members paulinpoland Posted January 8, 2010 Author Members Posted January 8, 2010 I suppose my point is....... Is there a right way and a wrong way to start out when you first use the plec? I know about alternate picking, and the benefits of starting off slowly...I was just wondering if there are any particularly good exercises for a plec novice. Cheers! Re SHUFFLE.... I reckon I can "swing" it....the slight increase in the length of eight notes etc....I've seen the late Emily Remler's excellent tutorials. Thanks!
Members gennation Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 This will clue you to jazz concepts pretty quick: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/ii-v-i-playing-over-the-changes-t19.html It will show you where the jazz sound comes from, show you chording ideas, changes, and a number of ways to play over them... IOW, you'll learn a lot.
Members TrickyBoy Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Ahhh.. It's making sense now.. you're a finger picker, right??? If so, I still do the following exercises as warm ups almost every day: Starting on the first string moving across to the sixth and back using up down picking: 1-2 (in other words first finger, second finger - down on the one up on the two, move to second string, repeat)211331144123322442344312442113443123443212344321 If that makes sense. Work with a metronome and keep it clean. If you're looking at jazz, do them as a shuffle as opposed to straight eighth notes
Members TrickyBoy Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Two more things I do every day: Tremelos 8's and 3's Start on fret 1 on the sixth string, pick 8 times (down up) move to the second 3rd and 4th frets doing the same thing. Repeat on every string up to the first and back. Repeat with triplets. Number two (this one may sound weird) Learn the intro to Master of Puppets by Metallica. It's a heck of a right hand workout.
Members meganutt7 Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Paul, With respect to the prospect of playing jazz, I think that you would not be at a disadvantage playing fingerstyle.. I do play fingerstyle alot and find that other than fast alternate picking, sweep picking, etc. Fingerstyle actually yields alot more benefits as far as polyphony and groove... Just listen to Joe Pass, Charlie Hunter, Tuck Andress, Martin Taylor, Charlie Byrd, Wes Montgomery, Earl Klugh, etc. etc. All these guys are fingerstylists, some of whom have ridiculous chops.... If fingerstyle is your forte', you can certainly integrate that into the jazz idiom. Regarding the specific exercise you put up, it should not be exceedingly difficult with fingerstyle technique or picking, if you choose a good fingering for either/or... Sometimes, for me, fingering is the key to pulling off lines that seem impossible... You just have to think that of the infinite ways you could finger a line, one is ideally suited for one purpose, whereas another may serve a different purpose, like legato vs. staccato, skipping strings vs. fast position shifts.... I think the best thing for you to do is to listen to some nice simple jazzy stuff and try to get into the phrasing... Get the Kenny Burrell record "Soulero" (I think that is how you spell it...) or any Charlie Christian recording.... This will really help you leanr some phrases that are easy to pull off but have that authentic jazz feel, sound and mindframe.... From there, branch out into other musicians.... (Kenny Burrell and Grant Green are two fine examples of guys that use ALOT and I mean ALOT of straight up pentatonic scales and make them sound jazzy, exotic and tasty by just their rhythmic placement, feel, etc.) If you have any questions, feel free to ask anytime, man!! Good luck.
Members Virgman Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Meganutt is on the mark. I'd stick with fingers.
Members TrickyBoy Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 I totally agree with the Prof. A pick is completely optional for jazz. I suppose my point is.......Is there a right way and a wrong way to start out when you first use the plec? I guess I took this quote to mean more of "I want to add picking to my arsenal, regardless of genre of music. Am I correct there?
Members Jasco Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Meganutt is on the mark.I'd stick with fingers. Yes. and yes. And to elaborate, take advantage of the things fingerpicking can do that a pick style would have trouble with: Playing multiple parts simultaneously. Skipping strings for large intervals. Classical style tremolo. Rasqueado. Certain arpeggiation patterns. Different tones. Sure it's tougher to play high speed single note lines, but the idea of music is expression, not speed.
Members meganutt7 Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Well, don't get me wrong.. There is alot to be said for pick-style guitar, too... But, I guess what I am trying to say is that just because you play with one particular plectrum (fingers, pick, etc.) doesn't mean you can't play any and all genres of music with that method... I know a guy who is a great flamenco guitarist and has all the fingerstyle techniques DOWN COLD (Rasguedo, rest strokes and free strokes, thumb movement, tremolo, etc. etc.) now, this guy can RIP and I mean RIP metal licks (sweep picking, crazy galloping riffs, etc.) with just his thumb (Wes Montgomery style... just more brutal...) I never was a fingerstylist until I checked out Tuck Andress and was BLOWN AWAY by what you could do with fingerstyle.... I did a lesson on my myspace page that was origianlly dealing with slap and pop technique but then I got into many other solo guitar techniques and all of them are played fingerstyle... Feel free to check it out on my myspace vids section, along with the few other lessons I posted on there.... They're free and useful... well, definitely free... maybe useful....
Members paulinpoland Posted January 8, 2010 Author Members Posted January 8, 2010 Thanks, everyone....I'm listening...or reading, rather! I am a fingerpicker, mostly until now, but on classical. I have a steel acoustic and an electric, but I put those in the box a year ago and decided to play on the classical for a while. It's a great instrument, and it's possible to get some pretty sharp sounds from it - plus lots of effects. My fingers are doing well now, flitting about, and I've almost nailed the fretboard notes. The transition from classical to one of the others is odd at the moment - a year back, the steel acoustic strings felt smooth and inviting under my fingertips....now they feel like cables! The same with the electric, to a lesser degree. I will warm up with the classical daily, to not lose what I have, and will make sure I pick it up regularly. I just fancied trying a pick.....as part of building up the all-round skills. There's hybrid picking to have a go at, as well. I'm going to have a go at blues on electric and acoustic, also. We have lots of winter left here! Re the example attached in my opening post.....I can't imagine, at the moment, my being able to pick that out with fingers and getting the "right" jazz sound. How would you guys approach the example? Two fingers, first and middle? Three fingers? Would you use the thumb somehow? The answer to this last question would REALLY help me get a handle on how to proceed.
Members Jasco Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Re the example attached in my opening post.....I can't imagine, at the moment, my being able to pick that out with fingers and getting the "right" jazz sound. How would you guys approach the example? Two fingers, first and middle? Three fingers? Would you use the thumb somehow?The answer to this last question would REALLY help me get a handle on how to proceed. This guy would just use his thumb: [YOUTUBE]fXvdU7f-q7I[/YOUTUBE] I alternate thumb and index 90% of the time.
Members Virgman Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Jasco is our resident fingers stud. He is available for consultation.
Members paulinpoland Posted January 8, 2010 Author Members Posted January 8, 2010 Jasco's "90% with thumb and index finger" point is interesting.....would three "classical" fingers be too many? A couple of them surplus to requirements? I can do the classical three-finger thing.....forwards, backwards, plus damping with any finger, playing "off the string" etc. My worry is that if I apply the classical picking style directly, I may be going in the wrong direction..... Thanks for the tips so far....and the links to vids and lessons!
Members Jasco Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 One other piece of advice I have would be to worry less about the technical aspect and focus most of your time on learning the musical aspect of jazz. Usually if you're working on the music, the technique part will take care of itself.
Members girevik Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 One other piece of advice I have would be to worry less about the technical aspect and focus most of your time on learning the musical aspect of jazz. Usually if you're working on the music, the technique part will take care of itself. I do believe this man speaks the truth. Whatever technical approach you take, you need repertoire, repertoire, repertoire to play jazz. That exercise on the first post of the thread won't cut it - you could practice it 8 hrs a day for 40 days and you still won't be playing jazz. Learn tunes, learn soloing ideas off of recordings and live shows. This is the proven way. The Real Easy Book series by Sher Music Co. is one place to start - they give you the easiest jazz tunes and point you to matching recordings for each tune.
Members jeremy_green Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Yes! 10000000+ Learn tunes -LOTSUsing your ear, screw the books - Its not as "instant gratification" but a much greater investment in your musicianship IMO Technique happens
Members meganutt7 Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 Jasco is right on all counts... I also use the thumb and index most of the time, unless I am doing multiple parts, in which case I would use the thumb for bass and then other four fingers (though rarely the pinky, sadly.. something to work on) for melody/chords on top.... Learn tunes and apply the theory you know toward getting familiar with devices to use OVER those tunes... Also, try to recognize it when another musician does use one of these devices in your listening experience.. For instance, on "All of You" on the Miles Davis 1963 My Funny Valentine recording, Herbie Hancock plays one of my favorite solos of all time and somewhere in the middle he goes off and does this 7th chord arpeggio/polyrhythmic superimposition thing... I always loved hearing it and had to figure out what he was doing for my own sanity... I found out it was these 7th chord arpeggios (with some substitutions, of course.. it IS Herbie after all...) and he was playing them in groups of 4 but as triplets, so the beat flips over and gets displaced.... Try to listen to your favorite soloists and discern what they are doing that makes you sit up and take notice.. Then, try to figure it out, or at the very least, let it inspire you to create your own lines...
Members paulinpoland Posted January 8, 2010 Author Members Posted January 8, 2010 Thank you very much, guys! It would appear that I could safely take my classical fingering techniques - which I like a lot! - and apply it to jazz......starting off with some swing-eighths exercises and going from there......see what technique ultimately develops. Same with the blues, I suppose. I will still have a go with the pick, though, to see how it feels. I'm still a bit puzzled.....when Jasco writes that he uses thumb and index finger 90% of the time........how on earth does that work on, say, long lines of eighth notes moving up and down? (Three minutes later, Paul returns from his quick experiment.....) Well, it does work! I just played a scale down from the top (thin) string to the low string and back up using just the thumb and first finger! It was very odd for about twenty seconds, then it suddenly felt okay. In classical playing, the thumb never gets up as far as the top string! Perhaps only very occasionally to the third (G). But generally on the three lowest strings, as bass. So I'd never thought of using the thumb and first finger as a picking machine on all the strings. Seems like the nails would have to shaped correctly. The advice to concentrate on the music and feel, and to let the technique come gradually by itself, seems to hit the spot! I'll get the metronome, sit down and pick away. Thanks again for the useful pointers....more always welcome!
Members meganutt7 Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 great, Paul.. Glad the advice is all working out for you... Remember to set the metronome to click on beats 2 and 4, of course, to get the swing feel going properly... And yeah, you can alternate Thumb and Index, or Index and Middle (or you could even do three finger with Index, Middle and Ring... etc.) Whatever comes naturally to you and produces the type of tone you envision yourself having... I find that for me, thumb and index work for 90% of things.. for the rest I usually use Index and Middle... Regardless, yes.. Just learn some simple phrases and repeat them with a metronome or along with the recording (if it's slow enough for you to keep up without too much effort...) Learn the language and then expound upon it as much as possible... If you need help with anything else, feel free to ask... There are plenty of guys here happy to help a fellow musician out...
Members Jasco Posted January 8, 2010 Members Posted January 8, 2010 In classical playing, the thumb never gets up as far as the top string! Perhaps only very occasionally to the third (G). But generally on the three lowest strings, as bass. On a classical tremolo piece, such as the one I've attached, the thumb would cover every string except the high E. I also practice classical style tremolo on just one string - PAMI or PIAMI - which could be just the high E string. Although I don't know if I've ever seen a piece using tremolo like that. Seems like the nails would have to shaped correctly. For what it's worth, I don't use nails at all - clipped as short as possible. My problem was that on electric and steel string I was playing hard enough to rip my nails off on the high E and B. I do use a lot of rest-strokes to make the attack a little more edgy. edit: For additional thumb work, check out some flamenco.
Members paulinpoland Posted January 8, 2010 Author Members Posted January 8, 2010 All you need to know: Jody Fisher. Beautiful playing! Sweet, with a subtle, underlying blues feel. .....great climax - he eats the pick! You can see him swallow! Thanks for the mp3, Jasco!
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