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New way of thinking about this...


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Posted

I don't ever contribute to the LL because I don't fell like I have anything new to offer, but I thought this was interesting so here goes.

 

I just started taking lessons and my teacher had me jamin over a static C7 loop.

 

He wrote out the notes for C mixolydian

 

C D E F G A Bb

 

Then he had me go through the mode like this:

 

DFA

EGBb

FAC

GBbD

etc..

 

Staying on each arppegio for a few bars. I know its basically just harmonizing the C, BUT it was interesting sticking to ONLY the 1 3 5 of each chord instead of using all of the notes within each mode. Id never really thought about it this way and it lent itself to some pretty cool sounding stuff IMO.

 

Hope my explanation made sense.

 

Mac

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Posted

That's a cool exercise Mac, and you're right, it does sound interesting as you can hear the effect each triad has against that C7...this type of practice really helps you "hear" your own ideas for licks and phrases and also makes your improvisations more melodic as you have all the "good" notes ingrained in your ear.

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Posted

Good exercise for sure.

Even cooler is if you play those in thirds from the Root of the chord. So play them from C, then E, then G, then Bb, then D, then F, then A, then C again.

Like so...

CEG
EGBb
GBbD
BbDF
DFA
FAC
ACE
CEG

This will take care of "linear/exercise" sound of going note by note and now you'll be building arps off the notes of C7 and it's extensions.

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Posted

Good exercise for sure.


Even cooler is if you play those in thirds from the Root of the chord. So play them from C, then E, then G, then Bb, then D, then F, then A, then C again.


Like so...


CEG

EGBb

GBbD

BbDF

DFA

FAC

ACE

CEG


This will take care of "linear/exercise" sound of going note by note and now you'll be building arps off the notes of C7 and it's extensions.

 

 

Gen... you just baloo my mind!!

 

PS. I really appreciate all the stuff you post here... I've gotten a ton of great info from you over the years:thu

 

Mac

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Posted

Isticking to ONLY the 1 3 5 of each chord instead of using all of the notes within each mode. Id never really thought

 

 

This is the approach taught in the book "Improvising Blues Piano" by Tim Richards. Use only the chord tones, then build from there. In the case of blues piano, it's almost a necessity to focus on just the chord tones for your right hand soloing, especially if you're still trying to coordinate that with playing the bass line with your left hand at the same time.

 

Sounds like you had a really good lesson!

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Posted

Total newb question, but would other C modes (such as CDEFGABC) sound correct with that C7 backing? Am I correct in thinking that a "7" is kind of generic enough to use with pretty much any scale (in the correct key)?

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Posted

The "7" put after a chord name means the chord is dominant so C7 is different from Cmaj7.

 

Typically dominant chrds are the V (five) chord in another key. So in the case of C it is the V of the key of F... which is why mixolydian works... cause it is essentially F in notes.

 

Make sense?

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Posted

Total newb question, but would other C modes (such as CDEFGABC) sound correct with that C7 backing? Am I correct in thinking that a "7" is kind of generic enough to use with pretty much any scale (in the correct key)?

 

 

It depends on the sounds you want to hear.

 

As Jeremy stated, the 7th degree is not always the same for all chords. In C7 and other dominant 7th chords, the 7th is flat. In Cmaj7 and other major 7th chords, the 7th is natural (not flat, not sharp).

 

Some people like to throw in a flat 7th against a natural 7th or vice versa during a solo, because of the "feeling" created by that sound. What that feeling is exactly depends on where your soloing line is in the song and is subjective to you as the listener.

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Posted

A traditional 7th chord would have a root, 3rd, 5th and b7th... so any mode that contains those notes (or FUNCTIONS, actually) would work.. Mixolydian, Lydian b7 (the fourth mode of melodic Minor), Phrygian Dominant (the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor) and many others will work... In addition to that, you can always alter one of the notes (in this case the fifth) and still retain a pretty close adherence to the tonality you were originally in... If you flatten or sharpen the five, you can play whole tone, for instance... Also the altered Dominant scale (Melodic Minor's 7th mode...)

I find that even if a chord contains a certain tension or intervallic structure, if you play a DIFFERENT one against it WITH CONFIDENCE, it almost always tends to sound good and intentional. Bear that in mind when messing with this and any other concept/s.

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Posted

Thanks for all the info, gents. I'm not looking for anything specific, sound-wise. I liked the idea of this exercise for where I am right now, and wondered if that was sort of a do-all type backing for a variety of modes. Now I see that there's more to it than just thinking about "C." I don't know many scales yet, basically just the major and pentatonic, and working on harmonic minor. Threads like this always catch my eye because I'm constantly looking for advice on ways learn how to apply them. The how to play over a backing still seems just beyond me.

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Posted

Thanks for all the info, gents. I'm not looking for anything specific, sound-wise. I liked the idea of this exercise for where I am right now, and wondered if that was sort of a do-all type backing for a variety of modes. Now I see that there's more to it than just thinking about "C." I don't know many scales yet, basically just the major and pentatonic, and working on harmonic minor. Threads like this always catch my eye because I'm constantly looking for advice on ways learn how to apply them. The
how
to play over a backing still seems just beyond me.

 

 

If you first take a break from learning scales, and focus more on identifying the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of every chord, your learning will be accelerated when you return to learning scales.

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Posted
If you first take a break from learning scales, and focus more on identifying the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th of every chord, your learning will be accelerated when you return to learning scales.



I couldnt agree more!! :thu:
Arpeggios are FAR more usable quickly.

We as guitarists have a tendency of always wanting more scales. Most of us barely have a grip on the ones we already know. I am always amazed how many times I transcribe something that I think is exotic only to find out it is completely diatonic.

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Posted

Okay, I'm all for anything that will help me see the big picture, thanks. Could you elaborate a bit more? For example, by identifying the root, 3rd, etc, do you mean simply knowing what these notes would be and having a mental understanding of that chord construction for any given chord, or being able to physically do something like strum a chord and then identify each of those notes by picking them seperately? Is there some application of this idea that should be the goal? (For example, is this a commomn arpeggio shape?) Could you also explain a bit more about how this should affect learning scales?

 

I see a distinct pattern to most of my questions on this site, in that I'm constantly seeking to align the theoretical with the practical--another reason I like the OP's exercise. It is so easy to fall into the trap of simply learning a bunch of stuff in a vacuum, but putting it into the context of actually creating music, or learning how others go about creating music, is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

 

eta: Bringing arpeggios into this discussion is interesting, JG. I'm definitely curious about the how's and why's of them.

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Posted

Is there some application of this idea that should be the goal? (For example, is this a commomn arpeggio shape?) Could you also explain a bit more about how this should affect learning scales?

 

 

I would recommend this simple practice - for each chord that you play, sing the root, then the 3rd, then the 5th, then the 7th. The singing will help you learn the sound of each chord tone.

 

Then repeat the above except play the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th on your guitar. Find those notes by ear - take your time, don't rush.

 

My personal practical application practice - I make up and play bass lines through tunes. Bass lines emphasize the root and 5th the most. If there is time, a bass player can throw in a 3rd or 7th. The more chord tones you know, the more notes you can include in your bass line.

 

The way this affects learning scales - new scales are typically introduced to students as the Major Scale with scale degrees tweaked to create the new scale, because most people learn the Major Scale first.

 

For example, some people teach the Melodic Minor scale as a Major Scale with a flatted 3rd. If you know the sound of 3rds really well, and already know the Major Scale it would take you about 2 seconds to learn the sound of the Melodic Minor scale, which you could then play by ear anywhere you want on the fretboard. If you - like me at the time- weren't all that good at learning 3rds and other chord tones before attempting the Melodic Minor scale, you would probably have a similar experience to mine, which is to spend hours practicing the scale as a pattern on the fretboard first before finally getting the sound into one's head.

 

For my personal learning style, I have found it more efficient to learn the sound first, then find the sound on the guitar. This is how I've been finding my arpeggio fingerings, fingerings for licks, etc. on the fretboard. No matter how many different patterns somebody tries to put in a book for chords and scales, I can always come up with more because I look for the sounds first, then the fingerings instead of the other way around. And you can too.

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Posted

Basically go through your major scale shapes and locate the chord shape for each note of the scale. The chord order is as follows:

 

Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, diminished.

 

So for Cmajor scale you get:

Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, GMaj, Amin, Bdim

 

So go through each scale form and locate these chords within. Include the 7th note as well to make them all major and minor 7 chords. The fifth (G) the 7 will be dominant7 so G7 if you are extending out to the 7's

 

Now lay down a chord progression and practice playing those chords as arps as the chords pass. In all positions. Learn to see all the shapes that lie within the major scale forms. When you are soloing this information is awesome because it eliminates the guesswork. When you get really comfortable practice improvising on the scale and landing on chord tones on each downbeat. It can be a brain melter if the progression is fast enough.

 

There is so much gold to be mined in the major scale forms and most of us move on before we really reap the benefits.

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Posted

Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, diminished.

 

 

Sorry if I'm muddying with waters, but I always thought of this as:

Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, minb5 (I know the notes of the minb5 triad is the same as the dim triad)

 

However, this way when I add the 7th its:

 

Maj7, min7, min7, Maj7, 7, min7, min7b5 (dim7 wouldn't work here, right?)

 

Am I looking at this wrongly, or are we basically saying the same?

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Posted

No Jason you are right on. I most always play the VII chord as min7b5 as a full chord.

 

Though I was formally taught it as a diminished triad. When I am playing lead sometimes I like to get into a triad arpeggios thing (a la Larry Carlton) so I tend to think in terms of diminished in that instance. For some reason it feels clearer to me to see the intervals.

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Posted

No Jason you are right on. I most always play the VII chord as min7b5 as a full chord.


Though I was formally taught it as a diminished triad. When I am playing lead sometimes I like to get into a triad arpeggios thing (a la Larry Carlton) so I tend to think in terms of diminished in that instance. For some reason it feels clearer to me to see the intervals.

 

 

Cool. I'm just getting back into seriously studying theory after a 15 or so year lay-off, and I wanted to make sure I understood this properly. Thanks.

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Posted

Cool. I'm just getting back into seriously studying theory after a 15 or so year lay-off, and I wanted to make sure I understood this properly. Thanks.

 

 

I have had a compulsion to formally sit down redo mine. Would love to see how the concepts look after all these years. Definitely couldnt hurt! Good luck with it. Its worth every minute

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Posted
Important concept for beginners here ^^^



Damn Jasco, do you trhink you enlarged that font enough?? or underlined it boldly enough???

;)

I guess i should elaborate a bit on FUNCTIONS....

When people view a scale, they can view it in a number of ways. The most common 2 are either by NOTE or by FUNCTION... in context.. you can think of C major as: C,D,E,F,G,A,B or as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. If you think of it the latter way (numbers/degrees/functions), it is FAR EASIER to transfer this concept or structure to other keys, etc. The reason is that the intervalic formula 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 represents an order that exists no matter where you begin it. if you were to do the same numerical formula, starting on a G note, it would yield: G,A,B,C,D,E,F# in notes, but if you compare the ratios of intervals BETWEEN the notes, you will find they are exactly the same RELATIONSHIP as they were in C major.

Now, how this helps you (or ONE of the the ways in which this CAN help you) is: If you are practicing playing over a C major chord, for instance... you can play every note in that formula and lean on it for a while to really hear what that specific note sounds like over a C major chord. Play a D note, for instance, which is the 2 (functionally) of C major. Now you know what that 2nd degree sounds like and FEELS LIKE when you play it over a C major... Once you learn this relationship, you will know BEFORE YOU GO TO THAT NOTE, in any key, what it will sound like and feel like to you and the listener.

That is pretty powerful.

Another thing this may help with is when it is time to ALTER scales or, say PLAY MODES...
If you think about a Mixolydian scale as 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7, you bascially nailed it. All you have to do is alter one note in your fingering, in your chord voicings, in your lick library orwhat have you, and you have gone into Mixolydian ratehr than Major. Again, I would play this Mixolydian stuff over a static chord to really understand what each note sounds like... what the tensions are, what the avoid notes (if any) are... etc. etc. etc.

This can really benefit you when it comes time to decide aesthetically what you want your solos to sound like. How tense... how melodic.. how chaotic... how consonant.. etc.

Anyways, I hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to ask for further elaboration.

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