Members rxbanditos Posted February 21, 2010 Members Posted February 21, 2010 In my high school theory class...we're learning chord progressions and how chords resolve to certain chords. We're also learning 7th chords. The other day I learned that chords such as the I and a vi (we're in a major scale) have two similar tones so they sound very similar (does this lead to chord substitutions? If so can someone please expand on this idea) so I decided to see what happenes when you put the I and a vi chord together (lets use C major7 and an a minor7) and got C, E, G, A, B and i really like the sound of this chord I usually resolve to this from V7 chord. Also I learned that in a diatonic major scale the vii dim 7th chord is only "half diminished" meaning its a m3, m3, M3... where as fully dimished 7th chord is a m3, m3, m3 and in this chord there's no sense of "do". I really like this chord its like one infinite arpeggio and you can't tell what note is the root, really cool. Any other cool tricks like this? Lastly, can someone please explain to me why in the heck are the notations for 7th chords sooo confusing...Why can't fricking stuck up music theory buffs just make it easier for everyone and just call 7th chords as they are. Example:Cmajor 7 = C,E,G,BCminor 7 = C, Eb, G, BCminor 7 = C, Eb, G, BbCdom 7 = C, E, G, Bb why can't they just have it notated as the the quality of the first 3 note triad and then the name of the interval between the 1st and the 7th? For example:Cminor-minor7thor Cmajor-minor7th???? Fricking bugs me that my high school stuck up ahole teachers don't wanna bend the rules because that's the way its been. This is why in my last thread about lessons I was reluctant to take lessons. I hate teachers who think their way or the way its been taught forever is the best.
Members Virgman Posted February 21, 2010 Members Posted February 21, 2010 Don't waste your time in school. Drop out. Get your brother the drummer, and that bass player from what's-the-band's-name and the wannabe rock-star-singer guy who owns the PA system. Start a band with these guys and go for it. Think up a good name for your band. Maybe use your last name or something. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I'm being serious. If you want to learn some good stuff go here and start at intervals. Then you'll know more than your teachers. Probably. http://lessons.mikedodge.com/
Members 1001gear Posted February 21, 2010 Members Posted February 21, 2010 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Elitist_Musical_Bastards Take that with you.
Members rxbanditos Posted February 21, 2010 Author Members Posted February 21, 2010 Don't waste your time in school. Drop out. Get your brother the drummer, and that bass player from what's-the-band's-name and the wannabe rock-star-singer guy who owns the PA system. Start a band with these guys and go for it. Think up a good name for your band. Maybe use your last name or something. Now I'm being serious. If you want to learn some good stuff go here and start at intervals. Then you'll know more than your teachers. Probably. http://lessons.mikedodge.com/ Lol man I know intervals, modes, scale and chord constructionI taught myself alot of that during the first week i started guitar along with learning the neck.I just recently learned 7th chords this week in class, in the year and a half i've been playing guitar now I really didnt have a need for 7th chords but now I know them its opening up alot of possibilties
Members rxbanditos Posted February 21, 2010 Author Members Posted February 21, 2010 http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Elitist_Musical_BastardsTake that with you. I'm bit of an elitist myself, take all those categories and combine is what you get
Members Space Pickle Posted February 21, 2010 Members Posted February 21, 2010 why can't they just have it notated as the the quality of the first 3 note triad and then the name of the interval between the 1st and the 7th? For example:Cminor-minor7thor Cmajor-minor7th That would be kind of long to write.
Poparad Posted February 21, 2010 Posted February 21, 2010 In my high school theory class...we're learning chord progressions and how chords resolve to certain chords. We're also learning 7th chords. The other day I learned that chords such as the I and a vi (we're in a major scale) have two similar tones so they sound very similar (does this lead to chord substitutions? If so can someone please expand on this idea) so I decided to see what happenes when you put the I and a vi chord together (lets use C major7 and an a minor7) and got C, E, G, A, B and i really like the sound of this chord I usually resolve to this from V7 chord. Yes, you're right about substitutions. There's two meanings to the phrase "chord substitution" that can be used. Sometimes it's similar to 'reharmonization.' In other words, taking a progression and replacing some of the chords with substitutes that function similarly and have some of the same notes in them. For example, taking a I IV V I progression and replacing the last I with a vi. They share 2/3rds of the same notes, so you can replace one with the other and it will work similarly. Obviously it's not exactly the same as the original, but that's the point. The other definition of 'substitution' is basically what you were doing with Cmaj9 (C E G B D). By playing an Em7 chord on top of a Cmaj or Cmaj7 chord, you change the sound slightly, highlighting different notes in the chord (namely, the 9th: D, which wasn't there before). Also I learned that in a diatonic major scale the vii dim 7th chord is only "half diminished" meaning its a m3, m3, M3... where as fully dimished 7th chord is a m3, m3, m3 and in this chord there's no sense of "do". I really like this chord its like one infinite arpeggio and you can't tell what note is the root, really cool. Any other cool tricks like this? Along with the dim7 chord there's the diminished scale, which is a repeating pattern of whole step, half step, whole step, half step, etc. It has the same minor 3rd symmetry as the diminished chord/arpeggio. Also, the augmented chord/arpeggio is symmetrical, but in major 3rds. The whole tone scale, which is just one note after another each a whole step apart, has this symmetry. Lastly, can someone please explain to me why in the heck are the notations for 7th chords sooo confusing...Why can't fricking stuck up music theory buffs just make it easier for everyone and just call 7th chords as they are. Example: Cmajor 7 = C,E,G,B Cminor 7 = C, Eb, G, B Cminor 7 = C, Eb, G, Bb Cdom 7 = C, E, G, Bb why can't they just have it notated as the the quality of the first 3 note triad and then the name of the interval between the 1st and the 7th? For example: Cminor-minor7th or Cmajor-minor7th ???? Actually, your second method is the standard way 7th chords and extended harmony (9ths, 11ths, and 13ths) are notated in classical terminology. At first it's more systematic, but it gets very unwieldy when dealing with 13th chords. Something that in jazz/pop symbols would be C13, in classical terms would be Cmajor-minor-major-minor-major13. As far as jazz/pop chord terms, here are some of the basic things to remember: The first widely used and named type of 7th chord was the dominant 7th chord, which is a 7th chord built from the 5th degree (the "dominant" degree) of a major scale. Because it was the first one named, it was just called "C7" or "G7" or whatever the chord might be. Only later did other types of 7th chords become commonly used, and thus commonly named. All the other types are basically triads with extensions. The Major7 chord has a major 7th, and the dim7 has a diminished 7th, but all the others have minor 7ths (unless the name says otherwise): Major triad + major 7th = Maj7 Major triad + minor 7th = Dominant 7th Minor triad + minor 7th = Minor 7th Dim triad + minor 7th = Half-dim 7th, aka Minor7b5 Dim triad + dim 7th = Fully dim 7th Edit: after reviewing your question, I see you didn't ask about extended harmony, so feel free to skip the next part, although look at the very last paragraph about triads with major 7ths. Next, take a look at the notes you get when built a chord from the 1st note in a major scale. Let's take C major: C D E F G A B C D E F G A 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 C E G B D F A 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 In this case, the 9th is 14 half steps (an octave + major 2nd) above C. The 11th is 17 half steps (an octave + perfect 4th). The 13th is an octave plus a major 6th. So whenever you see "9" in a symbol, it means a major 9th above. An "11" is by default a perfect 11th above the root. The "13" is by default a major 13th. So, Cm9 would be a Cm7 chord plus a major 9th. Cm11 would be Cm7, plus a major 9th, plus a perfect 11th. Cm13 would be Cm7 plus maj9, perfect 11th, and maj13th. C13 would be C7 plus major 9, perfect 11, major 13. And so on. If it's anything other than that, the chord symbol will say so. Cmaj9(#11) has a raised 11th. C7(#9b13) has a #9 and a b13. Etc... If the minor triad has a major 7th, the chord symbol says so: Cm-maj7. If the 5th is altered, the symbol says so: C7b5, Cm7b5. Even if a diminished triad has some other kind of 7th: Cdim-maj7.
Members rxbanditos Posted February 21, 2010 Author Members Posted February 21, 2010 Yes, you're right about substitutions. There's two meanings to the phrase "chord substitution" that can be used.Sometimes it's similar to 'reharmonization.' In other words, taking a progression and replacing some of the chords with substitutes that function similarly and have some of the same notes in them. For example, taking a I IV V I progression and replacing the last I with a vi. They share 2/3rds of the same notes, so you can replace one with the other and it will work similarly. Obviously it's not exactly the same as the original, but that's the point.The other definition of 'substitution' is basically what you were doing with Cmaj9 (C E G B D). By playing an Em7 chord on top of a Cmaj or Cmaj7 chord, you change the sound slightly, highlighting different notes in the chord (namely, the 9th: D, which wasn't there before).Along with the dim7 chord there's the diminished scale, which is a repeating pattern of whole step, half step, whole step, half step, etc. It has the same minor 3rd symmetry as the diminished chord/arpeggio.Also, the augmented chord/arpeggio is symmetrical, but in major 3rds. The whole tone scale, which is just one note after another each a whole step apart, has this symmetry.Actually, your second method is the standard way 7th chords and extended harmony (9ths, 11ths, and 13ths) are notated in classical terminology. At first it's more systematic, but it gets very unwieldy when dealing with 13th chords. Something that in jazz/pop symbols would be C13, in classical terms would be Cmajor-minor-major-minor-major13. As far as jazz/pop chord terms, here are some of the basic things to remember:The first widely used and named type of 7th chord was the dominant 7th chord, which is a 7th chord built from the 5th degree (the "dominant" degree) of a major scale. Because it was the first one named, it was just called "C7" or "G7" or whatever the chord might be. Only later did other types of 7th chords become commonly used, and thus commonly named.All the other types are basically triads with extensions. The Major7 chord has a major 7th, and the dim7 has a diminished 7th, but all the others have minor 7ths (unless the name says otherwise):Major triad + major 7th = Maj7Major triad + minor 7th = Dominant 7thMinor triad + minor 7th = Minor 7thDim triad + minor 7th = Half-dim 7th, aka Minor7b5Dim triad + dim 7th = Fully dim 7thEdit: after reviewing your question, I see you didn't ask about extended harmony, so feel free to skip the next part, although look at the very last paragraph about triads with major 7ths.Next, take a look at the notes you get when built a chord from the 1st note in a major scale. Let's take C major:Thank you for taking the time to write out this post...Poparad if you don't mind me making a suggestion...I had an idea that someone/some people should gather all the informative posts of this forum and make a sticky. I've been trying to use the search engine and it's completely horrible. But thanks for the advice clears up alot of confusion about the chord notations
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