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technical stuff you realize you knew sooner


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Posted

so after practicing a lot of hendrix solos i get this on my index finger

.... i remmebered it was slightly awkward to do that classic lick --- you know bend 16 g, then hit 14 on b and e...

 

http://img130.imageshack.us/i/blister.jpg/

 

 

so eventually someone told me when i do that lick i should only have the first digit of my index finger barre the string instead of what im doing here

 

worsetechnique.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/i/worsetechnique.jpg/

(personally i think i was doing this because my right hand muting technique is crap--- lol more technical problems to fix) (i was sorta using the tip of my finger to mute the g)

 

 

but i should have actuually been quickly moving the tip of my finger to barre

 

badtechnique.jpg

like this i guess

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Posted

By looking at your pictures I can tell why your muting technique is crap...you're not muting ANYTHING.

 

Forgot your right hand muting and work on your left hand.

 

Wrap your thumb up over the top of the fret and get all your fingers on the fretboard. Think of your left hand as nothing but a grip.

 

This mutes everything. THEN try and bring out only the note(s) you want to sound out, but continue to mute the rest.

 

Go look at some pictures of the greatest players who play that lick like Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Ace Frehley, SRV, etc...and look how they hold the fretboard and where their thumb is.

 

This is one of those things most people learn backwards by playing a note THEN trying to mute everything. But when you play, you should mute everything and work on getting the notes you want to play unmuted.

 

Seriously though, go look at some pictures of those guys. It will help your playing over night.

 

Really only put your finger behind the neck for 3-note-to-a-string stuff and other times higher up the fretboard from balance.

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Posted

I think he was just using that picture as a demonstration nobody actually plays that lick with the thumb behind

 

but are you saying you think the thumb should be muting strings? i find it a lot easier to have the right hand mute all unwanted strings, but first make sure the ones i want play and bend on are ringing out

Posted

 

I think he was just using that picture as a demonstration nobody actually plays that lick with the thumb behind


but are you saying you think the thumb should be muting strings? i find it a lot easier to have the right hand mute all unwanted strings, but first make sure the ones i want play and bend on are ringing out

 

 

I mute the lower strings with my right hand most of the time. Bringing the thumb around can be OK for leverage when bending strings, but it inhibits the fingers from moving as freely and from spreading apart, which makes most scale and chord work difficult, if not impossible, to do.

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Posted

There is not a hope in hell that my thumb could even reach over the neck, let alone function on the fretboard ala Hendix.

but I do have problems with unwanted string noise.

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Posted

I think he was just using that picture as a demonstration nobody actually plays that lick with the thumb behind


but are you saying you think the thumb should be muting strings? i find it a lot easier to have the right hand mute all unwanted strings, but first make sure the ones i want play and bend on are ringing out

 

 

Well, your thumb would mute the low E string. But the having your thumb up at the top of the fretboard allows you to grip the fretboard. So, while your thumb can mute the low E string, the rest of the fingers mute the rest of the strings as needed.

 

It's not only good from muting but also for playing with a relaxed left hand. Because agin, you just think of it as a grip.

 

Just look at pictures of those guys and it will become clear what I'm describing.

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Posted

how exactly do the rest of your fingers mute strings when you are playing them? lets say you bending the b string repeatedly--- isnt it a lot easier to just make sure your right hand palm is muting the g string but letting the b ring out

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Posted

ok well my teacher said i should only be using the first joint of my index finger to barre that lick...

 

but then

 

when you are using the tip of your first digit index finger, are you using the tip to mute the g string as it comes back down from the bend? cuz if i do that i kind of risk getting my blister up there again

 

or do you just mute it with your right hand palm

 

 

ALSO

somehwat unrelated question

 

|-------17----------------------------------|

|-20p17----17----20p17----17h20p17----20p17-|

|----------19b21-------19----------20-------|

|-------------------------------------------|

|-------------------------------------------|

|-------------------------------------------|

 

in the first part of this lick.. i find if barre the 17 with my finger again and do the pull off it actually sounds the 20 on E as well... would you advise "rolling" the index finger for this as well?

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Posted

By looking at your pictures I can tell why your muting technique is crap...you're not muting ANYTHING.


Forgot your right hand muting and work on your left hand.


Wrap your thumb up over the top of the fret and get all your fingers on the fretboard. Think of your left hand as nothing but a grip.


This mutes everything. THEN try and bring out only the note(s) you want to sound out, but continue to mute the rest.


Go look at some pictures of the greatest players who play that lick like Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Ace Frehley, SRV, etc...and look how they hold the fretboard and where their thumb is.


This is one of those things most people learn backwards by playing a note THEN trying to mute everything. But when you play, you should mute everything and work on getting the notes you want to play unmuted.


Seriously though, go look at some pictures of those guys. It will help your playing over night.


Really only put your finger behind the neck for 3-note-to-a-string stuff and other times higher up the fretboard from balance.

 

 

 

This is the exact opposite to every bit of advice I've ever seen on how to hold the neck :confused:

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Posted
This is the exact opposite to every bit of advice I've ever seen on how to hold the neck
:confused:



It depends on what you're playing. You won't see classical guitarists holding the neck like that, but plenty of blues/rock players hold it that way.

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Posted

 

It depends on what you're playing. You won't see classical guitarists holding the neck like that, but plenty of blues/rock players hold it that way.

 

 

 

Yeah. I realise that IRL that's how people play. I do myself (though maybe not as much as gennation is suggesting). I've just never seen a teacher so explicitly suggest it.

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Posted

This is the exact opposite to every bit of advice I've ever seen on how to hold the neck
:confused:

 

I do this too, I must say. I mute everything with a combination of left and right hand and then just sound out the notes I want. :idk:

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Posted
This is the exact opposite to every bit of advice I've ever seen on how to hold the neck
:confused:



Your statement is exactly why so many people have issues with muting. It's because they try to mute around what they are playing. I can't tell you how many times I've had a student who's been playing blues a while and has horrible muting techniques. I show him how to "grip the fretboard". Then I have him loo at all the pictures hanging in my music room (Hendrix, Townshend, BB King, Joe Perry, Niel Young, SRV, etc...) and they can SEE that this is EXACTLY how those guys hold the neck! After years of playing they never noticed it!

Seriously, hop in google pictures or youtube and look at just about any great guitarist, even jazzers like John Mclaughlin, and just look at their left hand. Does your left hand grip the nerck the same???

Yes, you do mute with your right hand but your left hand should be a muting machine regardless of what technique your right hand is pulling off.

PCM, I take you never fretting barre chords with you thumb either?

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Posted

 

Your statement is exactly why so many people have issues with muting. It's because they try to mute around what they are playing. I can't tell you how many times I've had a student who's been playing blues a while and has horrible muting techniques. I show him how to "grip the fretboard". Then I have him loo at all the pictures hanging in my music room (Hendrix, Townshend, BB King, Joe Perry, Niel Young, SRV, etc...) and they can SEE that this is EXACTLY how those guys hold the neck! After years of playing they never noticed it!


Seriously, hop in google pictures or youtube and look at just about any great guitarist, even jazzers like John Mclaughlin, and just look at their left hand. Does your left hand grip the nerck the same???


Yes, you do mute with your right hand but your left hand should be a muting machine regardless of what technique your right hand is pulling off.


PCM, I take you never fretting barre chords with you thumb either?

 

 

 

Yeah. I've noticed this for years with those guys but I guess you sub-consciously think 'bad technique'. I do hook my thumb over for a few Hendrix licks but that's about it.

 

I'll play around with it. To be honest I don't necessarily think I have a muting problem, my right hand deals with that. More that perhaps I can find a more comfortable and natural way to play if I simply let my hand find what's best for it. A brief test seems to show that it might be interesting.

 

 

I guess the point is, it's refreshing to hear a teacher go against the "classical Nazi's" who always want you in classical position.

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Posted

Your statement is exactly why so many people have issues with muting. It's because they try to mute around what they are playing. I can't tell you how many times I've had a student who's been playing blues a while and has horrible muting techniques. I show him how to "grip the fretboard". Then I have him loo at all the pictures hanging in my music room (Hendrix, Townshend, BB King, Joe Perry, Niel Young, SRV, etc...) and they can SEE that this is EXACTLY how those guys hold the neck! After years of playing they never noticed it!


Seriously, hop in google pictures or youtube and look at just about any great guitarist, even jazzers like John Mclaughlin, and just look at their left hand. Does your left hand grip the nerck the same???


Yes, you do mute with your right hand but your left hand should be a muting machine regardless of what technique your right hand is pulling off.


PCM, I take you never fretting barre chords with you thumb either?

 

 

 

how exactly still does your left hand mute anything besides using the tip of your index finger to mute the next string?

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Posted

Going from the bass strings upward, your picking hand can be used to mute. Going back down from the treble strings, the fingering hand will naturally close over the previous strings.

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Posted

how exactly still does your left hand mute anything besides using the tip of your index finger to mute the next string?

 

 

It mutes the low E string. But more importantly, by bringing your thumb up it brings your other fingers right on the other strings, helping you mute practically everything with your left hand.

 

I'm not anti classical style though, but if your playing RnR, funk, Blues, etc...type stuff, the proper technique used by the greats is to get that thumb up.

 

You'll still use the classical style for full barre chords, 3-note-to-a-sting Diatonic wankery, and also to balance your hand when you get high up the fretboard.

 

But for that low down, gritty, digging-in stuff think of your technique as more of a "grip" that a "fingering".

 

Do you play everything while muting everything, no. But your hand should be used to having your thumb up top and then your other fingers muting at least three strings at a time, having your thumb up is what helps you with this.

 

And, then you also need to be able to let your thumb move from the top down a bit when you play on lower strings or when you have to get into classical position. This thumb movement needs to become second nature.

 

Go here and notice how these guys hold the neck, and how the thumb placement is the biggest factor in the grip:

 

SRV: http://images.google.com/images?q=stevie%20ray%20vaughn&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

 

Jimi: http://images.google.com/images?q=jimi%20hendrix&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

 

Pete Townshend: http://images.google.com/images?q=peter%20townshend&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

 

Here's a vid of me tearing up a solo, look at my hand BEFORE I even play anything and how it's muting everything. Then look at how the thumb moves in and out of place naturally:

 

In the OP, when doing that common Chuck Berry bend riff, his thumb is no where in site. It should be peeking over the top of the fretboard.

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Posted

 

Going from the bass strings upward, your picking hand can be used to mute. Going back down from the treble strings, the fingering hand will naturally close over the previous strings.

 

 

Yes, you still mute with your right hand. But if you want that right hand free you mute with your left hand. The right hand muting comes from different pick/finger techniques. But when the right hand is muting or it isn't, your left should still be muting, unless you're doing something that requires clearance under the fingers, like full barre chords, 3-note-to-a-string Diatonic wankery, classical stuff, etc...but for the Blues stuff, get used to getting that thumb up.

 

The best way to get control of it is to think "lazy" or "relaxed" grips. If you're playing Blues or Rock and your not bringing your thumb up, by doing so can change you playing over night in a very authentic manner.

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Posted

There are a lot of factors involved here like strap height, hand problems, laziness etc. To look at a pic of a pro who is gigging regularly can be a little misleading. Not saying you are wrong Mike just there are factors. If a student of mine copied my hand positions during a gig at points i would be mortified. Sometimes I barre a major chord with an A string root with my index finger and pinky ... sometimes my wrist starts to hurt a bit so I dodge soreness creating many odd hand positions - crap like that.

 

I always looked at it this way. Hold your fretting hand up in front of your face. Make the letter C (is for cookie). This is generally the position you want. SO if you are playing on the lower E and A strings your thumb rides pretty low.

 

As mike says in this lick - the line is on the high e and b strings. So turning your hand (maintaining the "C") will bring your thumb to the top or likely hanging over the top of the neck as suggested. If your strap is slung low your thumb will hang well over. Then it CAN be used (for muting or fretting as needed)

 

Most of my muting on a lick like that is the pick hand.

We are all built a little different, you will find your way with more practice and awareness. All I know is KEEP YOUR WRIST ON YOUR FRETTING HAND AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE! Hand injuries are lifelong and a BITCH!

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Posted

There are a lot of factors involved here like strap height, hand problems, laziness etc. To look at a pic of a pro who is gigging regularly can be a little misleading. Not saying you are wrong Mike just there are factors. If a student of mine copied my hand positions during a gig at points i would be mortified. Sometimes I barre a major chord with an A string root with my index finger and pinky ... sometimes my wrist starts to hurt a bit so I dodge soreness creating many odd hand positions - crap like that.


I always looked at it this way. Hold your fretting hand up in front of your face. Make the letter C (is for cookie). This is generally the position you want. SO if you are playing on the lower E and A strings your thumb rides pretty low.


As mike says in this lick - the line is on the high e and b strings. So turning your hand (maintaining the "C") will bring your thumb to the top or likely hanging over the top of the neck as suggested. If your strap is slung low your thumb will hang well over. Then it CAN be used (for muting or fretting as needed)


Most of my muting on a lick like that is the pick hand.

We are all built a little different, you will find your way with more practice and awareness. All I know is KEEP YOUR WRIST ON YOUR FRETTING HAND AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE! Hand injuries are lifelong and a BITCH!

 

 

This will help left hand problems. Somebody told me a long time ago "if you're gonna play rock, walk into the club looking like a rock star, and make sure you play like one". It made me aware of what others were doing...and when you see it repeated by so many great guitarist...I guess it's your choice to ignore it.

 

It will help big time with hand issues and fatigue though.

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Posted

in this case, pictures may be worht 1,000 words, but those words would be misguided, since ONE or TWO pictures of a person in the midst of playing something reveal very little.. Also, it's pretty obvious that he was clicking the mouse to take the shot with his picking hand.. Who knows?? maybe usully he mutes the strings with it!?!?! I know I do.. I do not really play with the thumb over the top of the neck, unless I am playing Hendrix-type chords, or reaching for a low bass note sometimes... I bend strings with my thumb on the back of the board... That is MY technical preference... So I mute the strings in other ways.. There is more than one way to skin a cat, gentlemen....

I think it is important to encourage fellow musicians to think of how to solve their own idiosyncratic problems, rather than preaching dogmatic "gospel" because it works for you specifically.. There are tons of options.

I think the best place to see this is in that Eric Johnson video, Total Electric Guitar.. He talks about MANY different muting techniques and really lets the viewer/listener experiment and see what works best for them....

That is the type of encouragement most musicians can use.

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Posted

I never said I ignored it. Just that as a player improves he can get away with letting form slide here and there. Tucking a smoke in my headstock and spitting beer all over myself with my strap around my knees would also be part of walking the walk no? I dont see the connection between how Jimmy Page holds his guitar and a relative beginner. After playing for 25 years the only time I think about how to hold the neck is when someone asks. Then I am compelled to tell them how is proper.

 

How is any of what i have suggested contributing to hand problems? Straight wrist, thumb behind fingers...

 

My hand problems were caused by too much time spent practicing hard repetitive drills with no understanding the importance of breaks and posture. I was a youngin full of enthusiasm and no teacher. Got nothing to do with not holding my guitar like a rockstar.

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Posted

in this case, pictures may be worht 1,000 words, but those words would be misguided, since ONE or TWO pictures of a person in the midst of playing something reveal very little.. Also, it's pretty obvious that he was clicking the mouse to take the shot with his picking hand.. Who knows?? maybe usully he mutes the strings with it!?!?! I know I do.. I do not really play with the thumb over the top of the neck, unless I am playing Hendrix-type chords, or reaching for a low bass note sometimes... I bend strings with my thumb on the back of the board... That is MY technical preference... So I mute the strings in other ways.. There is more than one way to skin a cat, gentlemen....


I think it is important to encourage fellow musicians to think of how to solve their own idiosyncratic problems, rather than preaching dogmatic "gospel" because it works for you specifically.. There are tons of options.


I think the best place to see this is in that Eric Johnson video, Total Electric Guitar.. He talks about MANY different muting techniques and really lets the viewer/listener experiment and see what works best for them....


That is the type of encouragement most musicians can use.

 

 

I didn't exclude any techniques. And I covered the times when the thumb should be up and when it should be down, as well as the left and right hand.

 

You didn't look at those pics, did you? Here's a batch of Eric Johnson pictures (he's even got the thumb peeking over the top slightly on a 3-note-to-a-string position): http://images.google.com/images?q=eric%20johnson&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

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Posted

I never said I ignored it. Just that as a player improves he can get away with letting form slide here and there. Tucking a smoke in my headstock and spitting beer all over myself with my strap around my knees would also be part of walking the walk no? I dont see the connection between how Jimmy Page holds his guitar and a relative beginner. After playing for 25 years the only time I think about how to hold the neck is when someone asks. Then I am compelled to tell them how is proper.


How is any of what i have suggested contributing to hand problems? Straight wrist, thumb behind fingers...


My hand problems were caused by too much time spent practicing hard repetitive drills with no understanding the importance of breaks and posture. I was a youngin full of enthusiasm and no teacher. Got nothing to do with not holding my guitar like a rockstar.

 

Rockstar doesn't mean soon to be dead rockstar ;)

 

If the guys going play Chuck, he might as well play it like Chuck.

 

Hand position has everything to do with sore hands. I've helped guys who haven't been playing for years get over hands problems. Sometimes there's a time for the thumb in the back of the neck and other times there isn't., and Chuck is one of those to get that thumb up.

 

Look at those pictures. Take a look at one of the most advanced guitarist of our time: http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=john+mclaughlin&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=&start=0

 

Where's his thumb?

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Posted

Mike honestly you are not hearing me. I never said "dont put your thumb over the top" I said be careful using pros as an example. NOT - dont use pros, or Mike is wrong or never put your thumb up.

 

In my "like a "C"" example I said if you are on the high strings or depending on strap height your thumb will come up.

 

Some of these pros have long thumbs or big hands with different strap heights, different comfort issues...there are too many variables to say do it like them. You could equally find photos of players NOT doing that. As Danny said there are many hand positions required to play well.

 

You have to do it like YOU based on the physical attributes you were given.

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