Members Celik Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Hello guys, I am learning all the keys of the major scale.And i understand that certain keys have more sharps then others. So the C major starts with no sharps, then G has one sharp, D has two etc. My question is, is it important to remember this, i have allays thought about scales in terms of boxes how they look on the fretboard, but i feel like i am missing something with that thinking here so i wanted to know your take on this, and how you approach when learning the major scale. Thanks you,Celik
Members gennation Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 If you want to stop thinking of scales as boxes, the sharps and flats idea is one of the pieces of the puzzle. It will at least force you, or give you good reference, for learning the names of the notes on the fretboard...which is a MAJOR PLUS to your long term knowledge and playing. The Circle of 5ths will show you the break out of sharps and flats, as well as a TON of other important info.
Members gennation Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 As far as learning your Major scales, the boxes will help as a reference of the positions of the notes. To "know" a Major scale though you would need to know the names of the notes in the scale.
Members meganutt7 Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Hello guys, I am learning all the keys of the major scale.And i understand that certain keys have more sharps then others. So the C major starts with no sharps, then G has one sharp, D has two etc. My question is, is it important to remember this, i have allays thought about scales in terms of boxes how they look on the fretboard, but i feel like i am missing something with that thinking here so i wanted to know your take on this, and how you approach when learning the major scale. Thanks you,Celik Guitar is a unique instrument, in the sense that, in addition to the traditional music theory that applies to all musical instruments that are even tempered... you DO have this shape/contour thing that makes it VERY easy to move shapes and transpose things on the fly... That isa benefit, but can become a crutch if that is the only way you relate to the instrument... The more you know, the better off you are because you have options and a more varied knowldege base... Having said that... It is not exceedingly difficult to learn the theoretical ins and outs.. All you need to do is put in some work and effort and try to retain as muc has you can... The more you do it and USE IT, the better you'll get... With respect to the sharps/flats thing, the easiest way to do it is understand WHY the order of sharps and flats is what it is and then just practice remembering it... If someone hands you a piece of music and the Key Signature has 4 sharps, it's much easier to say "Oh, that's in E major" than to NOT know it, and just inefficiently stumble through awkward fingerings, etc. I f you know from the outset that you're in E major, you can immediately select a good fingering that will work for you in the context of the piece you are playing... Also, it's great to know it because of your fingerboard note retention... If I know that in the key of C minor/Eb major, there are 3 flats, and I know they are Bb, Eb and Ab, I can then play freely all over the neck (provided I am decent with knowing the fingerboard well enough by NOTE NAME and FUNCTION) and be able to land on the appropriate note, as opposed to relying on familiar box patterns I have learned.... At the end of the day, learning all these theoretical things needs to help you be more adept at getting your ideas out... Not to GENERATE the ideas for you... It's another tool to be used in conjunction with all others to help bring your vision to the fore.. It's just a huge time saver and helps you to understand the ebb and flow of things... I think that THAT, along with ear training, theoretical studies, techincal studies and transcription work are not only beneficial, but ESSENTIAL if you want to be a serious force in the music world.
Members Celik Posted March 24, 2010 Author Members Posted March 24, 2010 As far as learning your Major scales, the boxes will help as a reference of the positions of the notes. To "know" a Major scale though you would need to know the names of the notes in the scale. Ahh thank you, i always felt it was important to know the notes but i was not sure i thought knowing the boxes was good enough but i guess its important to know all the notes of the scale.
Members gennation Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Ahh thank you, i always felt it was important to know the notes but i was not sure i thought knowing the boxes was good enough but i guess its important to know all the notes of the scale. Here's a sure fire way of learning and memorizing the notes on the fretboard (read Part 1): http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Intervals/IntervalsTOC.htm It'll get you up to speed quick but retaining the information to the point of "knowing it" takes time. Follow the suggestion about re-writing the notes on a blank fretboard/paper over and over and over and over...then repeat That will help you understanding where notes are on the fretboard, and why they are where they are on the fretboard.
Members jeremy_green Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Mike is right you need to really know both - in the beginning the shapes will get you going but over time to get to a higher level you need to start thinking on a note level. That being said when I did my theory exams waaay back when I was a teenager I came up with this completely stupid, but easy way, to learn the sharps and flats in keys. So let me lay it out for you. Disclaimer - it is completely stupid and juvenile but it worked for me!_____________________________________ There are key sets: 1. Sharps2. Flats I think of them as separate in this method. STEP 1 ______________________________ First you need to know the order in which sharps or flats occur in the keys. So lets memorize the sharps.F, C, G, D, A, E, B Made into an easy to remember sentance:Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Bottle (memorize this) So if a key has one sharp it will be the F, if it has two it is an F & C etc. The Flats is the same only in reverseB, E, A, D, G, C, F Made into the same sentence:Bottle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father So memorize those 2 sentences and now you know what order the sharps and flats occur in. The next step is memorizing which keys have how many sharps OR flats. Which brings us to step 2. STEP 2 ______________________________ The sharps occur in the following orderG, D, A, E, B, F#, C# So G has one sharp, D has 2 etc. Memorize this sentence or preferably make up your own:Good Drugs Are Especially Bad For Charlie (yes I was young : ) the next one is worse!) So when I needed to know how many sharps are in the key of E I Think: GoodDrugsAreEspecially 4! There are 4 sharps, which are they? FatherCharlesGoes Down F#, C#, G#, D# Voila! Sharp keys memorized in 2 sentences For the Flats:F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb or Flat Bitches Eat Apples During Good Classes (HA! the teenage male mind! Sorry ladies, not very PC sadly. I am much more mature now! Honest!) So I need to know how many flats are in the key of Db, I think: Flat Bitches Eat Apples During 5! There are 5 flats what are they? (using step 1) Bottle Ends And Down Goes Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb______________________________ So there it is a completely whacked system from my teenage mind! Not likely ground breaking but it worked for me. If it works for any of you all the better! To summarize memorize this: Sharps:Good Drugs Are Especially Bad For Charlie (number of sharps)Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Bottle (what notes are affected) Flats:Flat Bitches Eat Apples During Good Classes (number of flats)Bottle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father (what notes are affected) Creative note: Create your own sentences to make it more fun and memorable. Any questions on this you know where to find me!Cheers
Members Celik Posted March 24, 2010 Author Members Posted March 24, 2010 Mike is right you need to really know both - in the beginning the shapes will get you going but over time to get to a higher level you need to start thinking on a note level. That being said when I did my theory exams waaay back when I was a teenager I came up with this completely stupid, but easy way, to learn the sharps and flats in keys. So let me lay it out for you. Disclaimer - it is completely stupid and juvenile but it worked for me! _____________________________________ There are key sets: 1. Sharps 2. Flats I think of them as separate in this method. STEP 1 ______________________________ First you need to know the order in which sharps or flats occur in the keys. So lets memorize the sharps. F, C, G, D, A, E, B Made into an easy to remember sentance: Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Bottle (memorize this) So if a key has one sharp it will be the F, if it has two it is an F & C etc. The Flats is the same only in reverse B, E, A, D, G, C, F Made into the same sentence: Bottle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father So memorize those 2 sentences and now you know what order the sharps and flats occur in. The next step is memorizing which keys have how many sharps OR flats. Which brings us to step 2. STEP 2 ______________________________ The sharps occur in the following order G, D, A, E, B, F#, C# So G has one sharp, D has 2 etc. Memorize this sentence or preferably make up your own: Good Drugs Are Especially Bad For Charlie (yes I was young : ) the next one is worse!) So when I needed to know how many sharps are in the key of E I Think: Good Drugs Are Especially 4! There are 4 sharps, which are they? Father Charles Goes Down F#, C#, G#, D# Voila! Sharp keys memorized in 2 sentences For the Flats: F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb or Flat Bitches Eat Apples During Good Classes (HA! the teenage male mind! Sorry ladies, not very PC sadly. I am much more mature now! Honest!) So I need to know how many flats are in the key of Db, I think: Flat Bitches Eat Apples During 5! There are 5 flats what are they? (using step 1) Bottle Ends And Down Goes Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb ______________________________ So there it is a completely whacked system from my teenage mind! Not likely ground breaking but it worked for me. If it works for any of you all the better! To summarize memorize this: Sharps: Good Drugs Are Especially Bad For Charlie (number of sharps) Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Bottle (what notes are affected) Flats: Flat Bitches Eat Apples During Good Classes (number of flats) Bottle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father (what notes are affected) Creative note: Create your own sentences to make it more fun and memorable. Any questions on this you know where to find me! Cheers Thank you, that definitely helps to remember things, i will keep that in mind as i am learning the scale in different keys. You guys are opening my eyes, i feel like new doors are opening for me.
Members MeanGeneBravo Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Those are some killer mnemonics! Hmm, killer mnemonics....That might be a good band name...
Members meganutt7 Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 If yo uwant to make your life easier, Jeremy, make the connection that: in sharp keys, the last sharp on the clef is always a half step below the key, so if you have one sharp (F#), the key is a half step above it, or G major. In flat keys, it's a fourth below the last flat.... So if you have one flat (Bb), the fourht below or fifth above, or however you want to look at it, is F. That is the key. F major.... It works well and is easier (for me at least) than learning a bunch of long mnemonics.... I'm not Johnny Mnemonic.... you know what I'm saying, broseph?? But, the real deal with these is just really KNOWING the notes... Knowing these things like the back of your hand takes time, patience, effort and APPLICATION.. you need to apply all this stuff a few hundred times in order for it to become instantly accessible to you... You can't sweep pick perfectly the first time you try... (well, maybe you CAN, but most don't..) It takes theoretical and technical knowledge, practice, application and incorporation into everything else you're doing.. That is what I love about music.... ANYTHING in music can be applied to ANYTHING ELSE... Sweep picking can be practiced over the harmonies of a metal song or a Jobim song.... Motivic development can be practiced in a jazz context or a flamenco context... Dynamics can be... you get the point... Just work your butt off.... As you can see from my "method", as opposed to Jeremy's, I have far less work ethic than him, because I am always looking for shortcuts... I see nothing wrong with doing less work to get to the same result... Having said that, I think that people relate to information differently, so MY method may not be everyone's cup of tea either... I think that betwen my ideas, Jeremy's, Mike Dodges' and anyone elses' who decides to share their insights, you will find that (i) there is no shortage in ways to see this and ANY OTHER concept, and theat (ii) there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Good luck skinning your cat!
Members jeremy_green Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Dude that was my system like 20 years ago ... dont really think like that anymore. The keys just kind of ...are... at this point. Great pointers though! I wasnt going to post that then I thought what the hell some other warped creature may relate to it!
Members meganutt7 Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Dude that was my system like 20 years ago ... dont really think like that anymore. The keys just kind of ...are... at this point.Great pointers though! I wasnt going to post that then I thought what the hell some other warped creature may relate to it! Yeah, I feel you... It's hard to have a system when your system has been unnecessary for a while... For us, I suppose needing a system for this is like needing an alarm system on a house that will never be burglarized.... LOL... When I sit back and reflect, I am happy because I have managed to get to that place (with certain things) where you can learn something and then forget it, as the masters say.... Ya know?!?
Members bigboy_78 Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 Hello guys, I am learning all the keys of the major scale.And i understand that certain keys have more sharps then others. So the C major starts with no sharps, then G has one sharp, D has two etc. My question is, is it important to remember this, i have allays thought about scales in terms of boxes how they look on the fretboard, but i feel like i am missing something with that thinking here so i wanted to know your take on this, and how you approach when learning the major scale. Thanks you,Celik You've got some great responses from the "pros" here, but I don't think any of them have actually explained why you need to memorise it. In my opinion the main reason for learning the note names, including sharps & flats of the major (or any) scale is their relation to chords. Until you really understand the major scale as a colleciton of notes, seperate to any fretboard pattern, you will struggle with chord theory.
Members GreenAsJade Posted March 24, 2010 Members Posted March 24, 2010 One thing to note: while everything has it's place, my experience is that "knowing how many sharps and flats there are" is somewhat a "down the road" step, not a good one for someone to be starting with. If you only know the shape boxes, the first thing you should find out is "why are they like that?". I am echoing, here, what gennation said. Start with learning "what makes a scale". Because then if you know that, you can figure out what notes there are in any scale: you are figuring it out, not rote learning. I know that D major has F# in it because I worked that out in a split second in my head: two tones above D is F#. OK, I now know it by memory too, but my point is that you _need_ to have done the working out. If you start with Father Charles first, before you start with WWHWWWH (which you will find on gennation's site) then you are skipping vital knowledge. So Father Charles is a great answer to the OP's question, but I'm suggesting that the question is the wrong one to ask first First ask "how do I work out what notes are in C major?" When you know how to answer this you will know _WHY_ it is that there are no sharps and flats in there, AND you will be able to work out what sharps and flats are in any other key. At that point you will say "Crap, I can work this out every time, but there are so many of them, how do I just remember them all instead of working it all out every time". At this point you call on Father Charles. IMHO, YMMV etc. GaJ
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