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How Did You Learn Scales?


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Posted

Hey all. I've been playing for a few months just working on learning some songs and ironing out technique and getting some finger agility. Now I'm trying to learn some scales and theory and begin learning how to do improvisation. The way I'm trying to tackle scales is to know the notes on the fretboard, the circle of fifths, and the formulas for the different scales (1-2-3-4-5-6-7, etc...). Then I can forgo all the pattern learning and simply figure out what notes fit into a given scale and play them that way. Is that efficient, or is there a better way to go about it? How did/do you do it?

Posted

While that is an important approach, don't completely disregard patterns. The guitar is a visual instrument, and it can really help when the tempo picks up. Most importantly, practicing patterns is also (or should be) practicing fingerings for the scales, and you don't want to get caught up trying to play something complicated and be fumbling over inefficient fingering.

 

I started out much like you, focusing on notes instead of patterns, but ultimately I realized that a combination of the two was the best course to take.

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Posted

 

Hey all. I've been playing for a few months just working on learning some songs and ironing out technique and getting some finger agility. Now I'm trying to learn some scales and theory and begin learning how to do improvisation. The way I'm trying to tackle scales is to know the notes on the fretboard, the circle of fifths, and the formulas for the different scales (1-2-3-4-5-6-7, etc...). Then I can forgo all the pattern learning and simply figure out what notes fit into a given scale and play them that way. Is that efficient, or is there a better way to go about it? How did/do you do it?

 

 

I memorized patterns. Pentatonics and blues scale.

 

Then next I learned the major scale. Melodic minor and harmonic minor.

 

Then arpeggios. More patterns!

 

But your way is certainly good.

 

I didn't really learn the notes on the fretboard until I got into arpeggios.

 

If I had to do it over again I'd probably just learn arpeggios and chord tones.

 

I don't have the secret believe me.

 

If you like your method stick with it. Everybody has their own way.

 

Pop has made good points.

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Posted

While that is an important approach, don't completely disregard patterns. The guitar is a visual instrument, and it can really help when the tempo picks up. Most importantly, practicing patterns is also (or should be) practicing fingerings for the scales, and you don't want to get caught up trying to play something complicated and be fumbling over inefficient fingering.


I started out much like you, focusing on notes instead of patterns, but ultimately I realized that a combination of the two was the best course to take.

 

 

Okay thanks. I think I'll try and learn the notes as a means of expanding my repertory of scales and whatnot, but also practice patterns to smooth things out. Where can I find the patterns though? And how do you practice them? Just pick a key and go through the different positions?

 

And Virgman I should probably learn arpeggios too I kind of overlooked that.

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Posted

Actually your question is about the best way to learn to improvise.

 

That is an interesting question really. You could learn umpteen scales and still not be able to improvise very well.

 

The type of music you want to improvise over has some bearing on what you should do.

 

Why don't you tell us your style of music and I'm sure you will get some good advice in that regard.

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I didn't learn scales until I had been playing (poorly) for a couple of years. I took some lessons over the summer and learned the modes, which were taught basically as seven "box" patterns all over the neck. I was also taught each of the pentatonic shapes, again, visually, but they're just a subset of the other patterns.

 

I ended up learning all the notes on the fretboard as as side-effect - I kind of learned where the root notes were in each shape, and that translated to learning them all over the neck. Going to blues open mics helped me learn the notes all over the fretboard as well - I had to learn to play in almost every key pretty quick.

 

There's nothing wrong with learning box patterns, imho, it will get you going and you can go a long ways thinking visually... but eventually you'll want to break out of the boxes. It would have been nice if I had been taught the modes linearly earlier on, so I wouldn't have had to break myself out of the boxes later. It also helps connect the different boxes when you play vertically up and down the neck. I still think in patterns a lot, although it kind of depends what I'm playing.

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Posted

My style of music I suppose would be rock and blues, and hopefully at some point I'll get into jazz too. If I had to pick any guitarist to exemplify what I hope to be I would probably pick Eric Johnson. Pretty vague I know, but being a beginner I don't have a very focused idea of my own style yet.

Posted

 

Okay thanks. I think I'll try and learn the notes as a means of expanding my repertory of scales and whatnot, but also practice patterns to smooth things out. Where can I find the patterns though? And how do you practice them? Just pick a key and go through the different positions?


And Virgman I should probably learn arpeggios too I kind of overlooked that.

 

 

As I said, the patterns are best for learning the most efficient fingerings. For actually playing them, it might be best to pick a spot on the neck, and work on getting to know the notes in that position, using the correct fingerings for that pattern. In other words, still focus on the notes, but reference the patterns for fingerings and to know when change strings vs. continue on the same string (basically seeing where all the notes fall).

 

Also, try switching between the major pentatonic and the major scale. Knowing the notes will really help with this, as you basically just leave out the same two notes wherever they show up in each position (the 4th and 7th notes of the major scale).

 

Try using the scale along with a chord progression in that same key. If you can record yourself strumming some chords to play over, this will really help out. The most important part about learning the notes is that it helps you find the best notes in the scale for each chord in a progression, as the 'best notes' change a little for each chord.

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Posted

when i was very young i was bussing tables in a place close to the college. some music majors found out that i had been playing self-taught for several years and started drawing out scales on napkins for me (the 6 strings, a few frets and dots). this lasted a few months and they came in every few days for lunch and loaded me up.

it launched me into learning my fretboard and associating positions with key and about 6 months later i auditioned with their prof and he started playing progressions and key changes and running them all over the place and i was hitting them with scales and when the chance was there i went into some of my self taught frills and runs anlong with the notes in the scales. started with the majors, then the 7ths and monors, went into arppegios and it really opened up a new world for me.

i passed and got a schorship but had to join the service because of the times and the situation (think blue collar poor and late 70's) but i did come out and joined the program with schoarship a few years later.

i owe those dudes a beer and a hamburger bigtime and i enjoyed the process of learning like than greatly

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Posted

Let me try to give an approximate chronology... it wasnt quite this clean but here goes!

 

I started out (after learning a boatload of songs first) learning the C Major scale. All 7 forms across the neck. I figured this was the best place to start because it showed me the locations of all the natural notes as a byproduct.

 

Once I was comfortable there I looked for the pentatonic form that resided within each of those forms.

 

Then i started moving the whole shape around to form different keys. At first it was simply a big shape that I moved. After a long while working on it I started noticing chord shapes within (arpeggios) so I started working them in.

 

The note names came well after. They are an integral part but not in the earliest stages. Thinking intervalically is probably more important .. I don't so much care if I am playing an E or an A as much as I am playing a I or a IV. I like to think that way because it makes it easier to shift keys.

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Posted
My style of music I suppose would be rock and blues, and hopefully at some point I'll get into jazz too. If I had to pick any guitarist to exemplify what I hope to be I would probably pick Eric Johnson. Pretty vague I know, but being a beginner I don't have a very focused idea of my own style yet.

At first, I'd say take a little time (preferably with a metronome) and go up and down each shape to get it into your fingers and your ears. At some point you just have to memorize where all the notes are and be able to get your fingers to go there. Then...

For bluesy rock stuff, I think a good way to do it is find songs with long jams in a fixed key - maybe something like The Allman Brothers' "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" - and just solo along. You can sit within one shapes and work on that. Play different melodies within that box and see how the different notes feel, and get your fingers used to moving around in that shape in a musical way (not just going up and down the scale). Once you're comfortable, try shifting around the different positions in the same key to get a sense of the scale as a whole all along the fretobard. Try to play using just one string. Then you'll start to see how these shapes really connect.

Then you can try songs that alternate between two chords - like the solo section of The Allman Brothers' "Where It All Begins" - iirc it alternates between E and D. You can use that type of thing to practice switching between two keys, whether you stay in the same position, or use the same shape in two different positions.

There are all kinds of backing tracks out there for blues and rock stuff, but I always found it good to practice on long, slow jams because it gives you a lot of time to work things out and noodle. ;)

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Posted

I learned them just like everyone else, as patterns.

 

Unless you read music and understand where the notes are on the fretboard right out of the box you'll mainly learn, memorize, and retain scales a patterns.

 

Nothing wrong with that at all. In the end it's all about knowing where you are going on the fretboard.

 

As you pursue the instrument you'll still see them as patterns decades from now but will also be able to relate them to note names as well as interval names and groups of intervals as well as in sounds.

 

Which ever route you take, keep memorizing and listening.

 

For memorizing the patterns, note names, intervals, and sounds I would play a scale up and down one string then over two strings, then over three, etc...and then over group of skipped strings. It's all part of the navigational skills you'll want/need.

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Posted

Let me try to give an approximate chronology... it wasnt quite this clean but here goes!


I started out (after learning a boatload of songs first) learning the C Major scale. All 7 forms across the neck. I figured this was the best place to start because it showed me the locations of all the natural notes as a byproduct.


Once I was comfortable there I looked for the pentatonic form that resided within each of those forms.


Then i started moving the whole shape around to form different keys. At first it was simply a big shape that I moved. After a long while working on it I started noticing chord shapes within (arpeggios) so I started working them in.


The note names came well after. They are an integral part but not in the earliest stages. Thinking intervalically is probably more important .. I don't so much care if I am playing an E or an A as much as I am playing a I or a IV. I like to think that way because it makes it easier to shift keys.

 

 

The only difference for me is I definitely was taught the minor pentatonic scale first. I learned it as Box A.

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Posted
The only difference for me is I definitely was taught the minor pentatonic scale first. I learned it as Box A.



hey bro, saw that beautiful girl :love::love: in your avi and checked your link. Excellent website :thu::thu: and your singer has the most beautiful smile i've seen in a long time.

Keep rockin :wave:

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Posted

How did I do it? Here we go...

 

A pal showed me the G pent minor scale in the 3rd position. I'd eared out the single note riff for the end of Free Bird, so wee would play that riff and we would trade off using the scale to make leads. Horrid sounds, but fun as the dickens!

 

He then showed me the full G Natural Minor scale in the same position about 2 weeks later. And one day in my room I stumbled on the discovery that a G note reoccurred an octave higher 12 frets up on the same string. WOOO HOOO...now we are off too the races. I could solo up high on the neck!!!!!

 

Then a keyboard buddy showed me the Bb major scale and said I could use it over Free Bird. "An Octave up too?" I asked. YES....Alex Lifeson here I come! I could solo in 2 positions...4 if you count the octave up position. I couldn't WAIT to jam with someone. Always on the phone setting up jams, cuz we didn't have any recording anything back then ('77?).

 

Then one day the octave thing began to bug me. "Hey, where are all the G notes on the neck?" So I found em by ear, and diagrammed them on a sheet of paper. And it hit me....the two scales I'd been using were only 2 POSITIONS of the same scale! "Holy crap! You can play the notes of the scale ANYWHERE on the neck!!!!" So I set out to diagram all the notes of the G natural minor scale. I did it by ear and relational positioning and it took all afternoon.

 

Then when I was done it hit me: suddenly I understood what an INTERVAL was...THE INTERVAL PATTERN IS THE SCALE...there are no 'correct' fingerings! You can just play whatever scale notes that sound good, wherever you want!!!!

 

And Free Bird was never the same.:lol::lol:

 

And today as a teacher, my teaching style is not as much "teaching by showing"; I try to get the student to "learn by discovery". It means more when you discover it, IMHO.

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Posted
How did/do you do it?

I played what sounded good. I didn't know what it was called at the time, but I played the G major scale over and over, figuring out various licks and patterns that worked. Then came the big day when I tried learning "Still Got the Blues", and I noticed that the first bend sounded wrong when I played it. I bent it a whole step, but after some trial and error I realized that I needed to bend it a half step to make it fit.

Hey presto: The A minor was discovered. :thu:

I've kept doing it like that ever since. Play what sounds good, and if it doesn't, just change the notes around until it fits.

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Posted

I learned the Amin Pentatonic "box" at the 5th fret first...and much later figured out how to move it around. :facepalm: Then I learned the Major scale in it's 7 popular "shapes".

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