Members jeremy_green Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Hey guys I get the concept... But I haven't fully understood it's application. I feel this is one of those concepts that is BIG but I haven't cracked it yet. For those that haven't heard of it or don't recognize my naming of it. It is where you take a diminished chord. Lower one note at a time by a half step. This yields 4 dominant chords from each diminished chord. Pat Martino teaches this a lot. Any insights would be hugely appreciated.
Members mosiddiqi Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Hey Jeremy!..I'm in the same place as you on this I think..I get the idea..he also teaches the same sort of thing with the Augmented triad..where lowering each tone in turn gets you a Major chord..neat..but I don't quite see how I can use this. Unless it's just a short cut to learning chord shapes?
Members jeremy_green Posted May 3, 2010 Author Members Posted May 3, 2010 I dont think so Mo ... I think it is more that you can treat all those linked dominants in a similar fashion while improvising... and or modulation points for composition etc.... I am not really clear on it though. There are 4 diminished chords so that creates 4 groupings of 4 related dominants ... It has the stench of a HUGE concept. Just want to make sure I get it
Members gennation Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Hey guys I get the concept... But I haven't fully understood it's application. I feel this is one of those concepts that is BIG but I haven't cracked it yet. For those that haven't heard of it or don't recognize my naming of it. It is where you take a diminished chord. Lower one note at a time by a half step. This yields 4 dominant chords from each diminished chord. Pat Martino teaches this a lot. Any insights would be hugely appreciated. The first thing to get is that Martino thing is for memory purposes and not so much application. It also works with augmented chords, by lowering and raising certain notes it yields basic chords/triads. It's been a while since I've looked at it but it's not "playing application" it's another method, such as CAGED, to help you organize the fretboard, compare chords, etc...if you're looking for "something to play" out of the idea, don't bother, that's not Pat's intention. That method is how he organizes the fretboard. In application, the diminished scale is mainly used AGAINST dom7 chords, not dom9, but dom7. Or it is used as tension before resolution. The dom7 chord is so wide open though that thinking "I'll play this one scale over the dom7 chord" doesn't get you a whole lot. So, you don't necessarily play it up and down like you would a Blues scale, or the Diatonic scale patterns. Instead it's used to "get you somewhere". If you use it over a static dom7 chord you'll find that the H-W scale works good, but it works even better if mixed with the Mixolydian, Lydian Dominant, and Whole Tone scales from the Root of the dom7 chord: like A7, use A Mixolydian, A H-W, A Lyd Dom, and A Whole Tone. I think of it as giving the dom7 some "salt and pepper". Here's an example of "The Endless Exploitation of A7" using those three scales against the A7 chord (as well as the A Prhygian Dominant in small spots), beware though, this is played as an example for how to "stay outside" and never really "comes home" per say): If you're familiar with the "b5 sub" or the "tritone sub", you'll find that substitute IN the H-W scale, for instance: A7's b5 sub is Eb7, Both of those 4 note chords are IN the A H-W scale. This b5 sub is a GREAT way to get your ears to "trust" outside playing. Once the b5 sub sounds natural to you, use the H-W scale instead. Another time the diminished sound is used is in a Minor V7-Im. For one in A Minor: ||: Am | Am | E7 | E7 :|| DON'T play Am7 JUST to color it up, it screws up the M7 interval before you even have a chance to use it!!! Just play straight Am! And DON'T play E9 just to color it up, that natural 9 isn't found in the diminished sound in this application! Just play E7. For the last measure of E7 play dim7 arpeggios, G#dim7 Bdim7 Ddim7 and Fdim7. These chords LEAD YOU BACK TO Am, that is their sole purpose (they really don't have anything to do with E7, but are for creating tension that resolves back to Am). Another application is found with basic chords, a H-W scale (or even the W-H scale) contains MANY sets of common chords that are all a m3 interval apart, I have a canned list in Bb H-W: If we look at a Bb W-H scale we get: Bb C Db Eb E F# G A Bb Here's the groups of "related" chords in this scale: four Major triads = A, C, Eb, F# four Minor triads- Am, Cm, Ebm, F#m four dim7 chords = Bbdim7, Dbdim7, Edim7, Gdim7 (each chord is a m3rd apart) four dom7 chords = A7, C7, Eb7, F#7 (each chord is a m3rd apart) four m7 chords = Am7, Cm7, Ebm7, F#m7 (each a m3rd apart) four m7b5 chords = Am7b5, Cm7b5, Ebm7b5, F#m7b5 (each a m3rd apart) From here you can find a common movement where a player takes a lick, any lick really, and simply moves it in m3rd's until he needs to resolve it. All in all, the scales are fine, but unless you have the concept of where diminished (and augmented) chords are found and used, it might be hard to grasp anything to do with scales...IOW, if you know where (and why) you can place a dim7 chord, you can them experiment with the diminished SOUND in the same place...and YOU"LL HEAR IT! That V7-Im is a GREAT place to start. Vamp it with a Gypsy or Klezmer feel and you'll be mastering the "diminished sound" by the end of the day! You'll also find where the dim7 sound can be part of the Diminished Scale or the Harmonic Minor scale. Where it's part of the Harm Min scale is that Am->E7 thing. All these application ideas are but just the tip of the iceberg. But, to pursue the sound in a musical way...I have a few tutorials directly related to the Diminished chords and scales here: Diminished Concepts in Common Music: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/diminished-concepts-in-common-music-t26.html Copping The Jimmy Herring Vibe, Diminished Scale visualization: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/some-thoughts-on-copping-that-jimmy-herring-diminished-vibe-t6.html Navigating the Minor 2-5-1, Diminished Arps, and the Harmonic Minor Connection: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/navigating-the-minor-2-5-1-diminished-arps-and-the-t33.html Melodic Minor Primer (for info on the b5 sub): http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htm Simple and Effective Way to Modulate: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/simple-way-to-change-keys-or-modulate-simple-and-effective-t42.html VIm-IIm-V-I: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/substitutions-and-the-vim-iim-v-i-progression-part-1-of-2-t3.html Footprints...and Forward Motion (a moving relationship between dim7 and aug chords): http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/footprints-some-forward-motion-concepts-t2.html This is a great sound to get in your playing as it adds a lot of harmonic dynamics to the music...IOW, helps you realize where you can place "movement" that results in tension and release (which I've found, and hear, is a common thing missing in a lot of players playing where they learn to play over chords but not from one chord to the next). Hope that stuff helps...that's why I write those things up
Moderators Jed Posted May 3, 2010 Moderators Posted May 3, 2010 Cross-posted from HC 2: Jeremy,You probably already know this much but as background for others this is the basic concept: Take any diminished 7th chord - say B
Members mosiddiqi Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 The first thing to get is that Martino thing is for memory purposes and not so much application. It also works with augmented chords, by lowering and raising certain notes it yields basic chords/triads. It's been a while since I've looked at it but it's not "playing application" it's another method, such as CAGED, to help you organize the fretboard, compare chords, etc...if you're looking for "something to play" out of the idea, don't bother, that's not Pat's intention. That method is how he organizes the fretboard. In application, the diminished scale is mainly used AGAINST dom7 chords, not dom9, but dom7. Or it is used as tension before resolution. The dom7 chord is so wide open though that thinking "I'll play this one scale over the dom7 chord" doesn't get you a whole lot. So, you don't necessarily play it up and down like you would a Blues scale, or the Diatonic scale patterns. Instead it's used to "get you somewhere". If you use it over a static dom7 chord you'll find that the H-W scale works good, but it works even better if mixed with the Mixolydian and Lydian Dominant from the Root of the dom7 chord: like A7, use A Mixolydian, A H-W, and A Lyd Dom. I think of it as giving the dom7 some "salt and pepper". Here's an example of "The Endless Exploitation of A7" using those three scales against the A7 chord (as well as the A Prhygian Dominant in small spots), beware though, this is played as an example for how to "stay outside" and never really "comes home" per say): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1utjgFScgBE If you're familiar with the "b5 sub" or the "tritone sub", you'll find that substitute IN the H-W scale, for instance: A7's b5 sub is Eb7, Both of those 4 note chords are IN the A H-W scale. This b5 sub is a GREAT way to get your ears to "trust" outside playing. Once the b5 sub sounds natural to you, use the H-W scale instead. Another time the diminished sound is used is in a Minor V7-Im. For one in A Minor: ||: Am | Am | E7 | E7 :|| DON'T play Am7 JUST to color it up, it screws up the M7 interval before you even have a chance to use it!!! Just play straight Am! And DON'T play E9 just to color it up, that natural 9 isn't found in the diminished sound in this application! Just play E7. For the last measure of E7 play dim7 arpeggios, G#dim7 Bdim7 Ddim7 and Fdim7. These chords LEAD YOU BACK TO Am, that is their sole purpose (they really don't have anything to do with E7, but are for creating tension that resolves back to Am). Another application is found with basic chords, a H-W scale (or even the W-H scale) contains MANY sets of common chords that are all a m3 interval apart, I have a canned list in Bb H-W: If we look at a Bb W-H scale we get: Bb C Db Eb E F# G A Bb Here's the groups of "related" chords in this scale: four Major triads = A, C, Eb, F# four Minor triads- Am, Cm, Ebm, F#m four dim7 chords = Bbdim7, Dbdim7, Edim7, Gdim7 (each chord is a m3rd apart) four dom7 chords = A7, C7, Eb7, F#7 (each chord is a m3rd apart) four m7 chords = Am7, Cm7, Ebm7, F#m7 (each a m3rd apart) four m7b5 chords = Am7b5, Cm7b5, Ebm7b5, F#m7b5 (each a m3rd apart) From here you can find a common movement where a player takes a lick, any lick really, and simply moves it in m3rd's until he needs to resolve it. All in all, the scales are fine, but unless you have the concept of where diminished (and augmented) chords are found and used, it might be hard to grasp anything to do with scales...IOW, if you know where (and why) you can place a dim7 chord, you can them experiment with the diminished SOUND in the same place...and YOU"LL HEAR IT! That V7-Im is a GREAT place to start. Vamp it with a Gypsy or Klezmer feel and you'll be mastering the "diminished sound" by the end of the day! You'll also find where the dim7 sound can be part of the Diminished Scale or the Harmonic Minor scale. Where it's part of the Harm Min scale is that Am->E7 thing. All these application ideas are but just the tip of the iceberg. But, to pursue the sound in a musical way...I have a few tutorials directly related to the Diminished chords and scales here: Diminished Concepts in Common Music: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/diminished-concepts-in-common-music-t26.html Copping The Jimmy Herring Vibe, Diminished Scale visualization: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/some-thoughts-on-copping-that-jimmy-herring-diminished-vibe-t6.html Navigating the Minor 2-5-1, Diminished Arps, and the Harmonic Minor Connection: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/navigating-the-minor-2-5-1-diminished-arps-and-the-t33.html Melodic Minor Primer (for info on the b5 sub): http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MelMinPrim/Intro.htm Simple and Effective Way to Modulate: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/simple-way-to-change-keys-or-modulate-simple-and-effective-t42.html VIm-IIm-V-I: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/substitutions-and-the-vim-iim-v-i-progression-part-1-of-2-t3.html Footprints...and Forward Motion (a moving relationship between dim7 and aug chords): http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/footprints-some-forward-motion-concepts-t2.html This is a great sound to get in your playing as it adds a lot of harmonic dynamics to the music...IOW, helps you realize where you can place "movement" that results in tension and release (which I've found, and hear, is a common thing missing in a lot of players playing where they learn to play over chords but not from one chord to the next). Hope that stuff helps...that's why I write those things up Ah!..that highlighted bit is how I usually use diminished sounds..leading back up to say Am in that case..very Yngwie.
Members gennation Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Ah!..that highlighted bit is how I usually use diminished sounds..leading back up to say Am in that case..very Yngwie. Very Harmonic Minor actually. Look at that link for Diminished Sound in Common Music and you'll see more how the Diminished Scale is used. I produces these sounds over Swing/Jazz Blues: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/AntSwingBlues-medium.mp3
Members mosiddiqi Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Very Harmonic Minor actually. Look at that link for Diminished Sound in Common Music and you'll see more how the Diminished Scale is used. I produces these sounds over Swing/Jazz Blues: http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/AntSwingBlues-medium.mp3 Very cool!
Members gennation Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Very cool! There's some slop for sure, It was a loose late night one-off jam that RedAnt posted in the Guitar Jam about 3-4 years ago. I took a whack at it But there's examples of that "moving in m3rd's" stuff in there for sure.
Members TrickyBoy Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 I know I'm the theory novice here and this might have been covered in Gennations post above, but I started learning about this a little bit and one of the neat applications I found was in a straight I - IV - V blues scenario, (for this example, we'll assume A7 - D7 - E7), the A# diminshed arp makes a nice transition from the I to the IV as well as the V to the I.
Moderators Jed Posted May 3, 2010 Moderators Posted May 3, 2010 I know I'm the theory novice here and this might have been covered in Gennations post above, but I started learning about this a little bit and one of the neat applications I found was in a straight I - IV - V blues scenario, (for this example, we'll assume A7 - D7 - E7), the A# diminshed arp makes a nice transition from the I to the IV as well as the V to the I. Playing the A# diminished 7th arp to get from A7 to D7: A#
Members TrickyBoy Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Playing the A# diminished 7th arp to get from A7 to D7: A#
Members Virgman Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 Bdim and G7 share three notes. A very strong relation. The common diminished shape Bdim --4------------------3-------------------4-------------------3----------------------------------------------------- Can also be Fdim, Ddim, G#dim. So if Bdim can be subbed for G7, it figures this shape can also be subbed for the corresponding dominants of the others. They all share two or more notes. And from here it just goes on and on until it sounds like crap.
Members TrickyBoy Posted May 3, 2010 Members Posted May 3, 2010 And from here it just goes on and on until it sounds like crap. I try to stop before reaching this point.
Moderators Jed Posted May 3, 2010 Moderators Posted May 3, 2010 You're right, I misspoke, but the Fdim might work from E7 to A7, yes? Exactly!
Members TrickyBoy Posted May 4, 2010 Members Posted May 4, 2010 I'm slow, but I see Danny taught me well
Members Jasco Posted May 4, 2010 Members Posted May 4, 2010 Hey guysI get the concept... But I haven't fully understood it's application. I feel this is one of those concepts that is BIG but I haven't cracked it yet.For those that haven't heard of it or don't recognize my naming of it. It is where you take a diminished chord. Lower one note at a time by a half step. This yields 4 dominant chords from each diminished chord. Pat Martino teaches this a lot.Any insights would be hugely appreciated. Without reading the whole thread... Diminished chords are essentially dominant b9 function in a lot of cases. Also, because they want to resolve to a major or minor chord whose root is a half step above any note in the diminished chord, they are great 'pivot' chords for key modulations. Good composition tool.
Members jonPhillips Posted May 6, 2010 Members Posted May 6, 2010 Diminished chords are essentially dominant b9 function in a lot of cases. Also, because they want to resolve to a major or minor chord whose root is a half step above any note in the diminished chord, they are great 'pivot' chords for key modulations. Good composition tool. I do love a nice summary of what at first appears to be a hugely complicated concept
Members colorguard Posted May 6, 2010 Members Posted May 6, 2010 diminished chords and the half/whole scales. just feel it, don't think too much.
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