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Theory question


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Posted

I can't find any abstract theory forums, this is the only one that even mentions theory.

 

So here, for better or for worse, is my question.

 

If you have two instruments playing in 8/8, both of which have three beats, and the number of divisions of these beats are:

 

2,3,3 for the first instrument

 

and:

 

3,2,3 for the second instrument

 

Does this quality as a polyrhythm?

 

(Comments onto whether or not this actually matters would also be valid answers to this question).

 

Edit: Having posted it, provided that the beats (rather than divisions) are played at regular tempo, surely it's a polyrhythm, as (e.g.) in the first beat, the first instrument will play three divisions, while the second instrument only plays two, and vice versa in the second beat.

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Posted

No worries man, any question is welcome. 8/8 is really just 4/4 so you are complicating it a bit already. No that wouldnt really qualify as a poly rhythm as both patterns are divisible by the same. That same grouping of 8th notes - although different repeat each bar.

 

A real poly rhythm example would be to write a pattern in say 5/4 and play that over another pattern of 4/4. Doing this would cause the pattern to be out of phase for 4 bars and coming back together on the fifth. Because one part is carrying that one extra beat.

 

You can do this with any different time signatures. Bands like Tool and King Crimson do this stuff a lot. Listen to some of their stuff and you will hear the dizzy kind of spiraling effect. It is unmistakable and pretty damn cool!

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Posted

I think the 8/8 might be listed to show how the rhythm groupings/beats are spread out past the basic 4 beats, IOW it might be an 8 note phrase the OP is working with.

 

If that rhythm in your example is played on the beats, or just a simple subdivisions of the basic beats, then it's not really a poly-rhythm. Usually a poly-rhythm is one time signature played 'against', or independently and simultaneously from, the current time signature.

 

In my experience it's usually a odd time sig against an even time sig or vice versa. So 3 against 4, or 5 against 4, or 4 against 5. Which one it is depends on the written time signature.

 

From what I gather reading your example you are just creating rhythm groups within the 8 beat structure. And each instrument has it's own grouping. Similar to Dance of the Maya by The Mahavishnu Orchestra, it's in 10/8 but it's played as 3+3+3+1. There are other examples of songs in 15/8 that are phrased as 8/8+7/8=15/8. Neither of these are a poly rhythm but more of a rhythm group equaling the same amount of beats per measure.

 

What I think you have in your example is an 8 beat phrase with each instrument having it's own groups of sub phrases.

 

Hope that made sense. You might try wikipedia for a definitive explanation of poly rhythms.

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Posted

I've realised that part of my question is wrong, but I'm confident that I know that 4/4 and 8/8 aren't the same thing. 3/4 is a simple meter, in that each beat is divided into two. 1 and 2 and 3 and .... 6/8 is a compound meter in that it has two beats, divided into three 1 and a 2 and a. 7/8 is an odd meter as the beats are not divided into equal divisions, 7/8 could be 1 and a 2 and 3 and ..... And 8/8 is also an odd meter as otherwise it would be 4/4. For example 1 and a 2 and a 3 and ......

 

But the beats of unequal numbers of divisions must take up different amounts of time. It's the 7/8 example that shows this, with the 1/8 notes all being equal sized, but the beats being of different times. Same must apply to 8/8 of various permutations. So, the only differences between different 8/8 meters (and 4/4) is the assignment of emphasis to the 1/8th notes which then indicates the beats and defines the time signature.

 

I think Gennation has the answer I'm looking for. I'll read it a few more times to digest it.

 

I've been playing quite a bit of fingerstyle acoustic recently, and I've noted how easy it is to come up with patterns that clearly show different meters (I hope :) ), hence my question. I've been thinking of some of the things Frank Zappa did with time signatures and meters. Two bars of 7/8 then a bar of 4/4 to make 22/8.

 

Edit: Ah, clearer. Both of you mention that it's not a real polyrhythm with 2x 8/8. In the more obvious polyrhythms as you give in examples, the measures are off different lengths, so that you get a changing pattern of combinations of emphasis as the two rhythms go in and out of measure sync. But with 2x 8/8, the measures are of equal length, and this doesn't happen. Hence no polyrhythm.

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Posted

Technically polyrhythms involve two or more meters coinciding in the same metric interval, say one measure. That is two simultaneous meters on a bar for bar basis. The rhythms you speak of would probably fall under odd and contrapuntal and/or contrarhythmic groupings.

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Posted

Mike and I essentially said the same thing (as did Gear).

 

Here look at it like this. Use any 2 different odd signatures:

 

Part one played in 4/4 looks like this:

 

12341234123412341234

 

Part two played in 5/4 looks like this:

 

12345123451234512345

 

Played at the same time look where they come back together:

 

123412341234123412341

123451234512345123451

 

 

As you can see the "one" moves back one beat in the shorter numbered measures of 4/4. So it takes 5 bars for the "one"s to line up again.

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