can someone advise a terrible player on how to use the "super pentatonic"

[3shiftgtr]

personally i think that solo is god awful... meh

So what? I don't like it either....why does that matter? Got news...it doesn't. Your opinion of it has no bearing to the applicability of it's principles. It is AN EXAMPLE. Nothing more.

Why you keep hiding behind that, mang?

[Alex_DeLarge]

Even if there's just a bass line, it has a chord tonality implied; it is not just random nonsense over random nonsense.

[1001gear]

Melodies carry their own harmonic implications - chord tones obviously but whole steps imply 7th chords and half steps can imply secondary dominants for example. Even if the melody strays off key the ear will sort things out.

[jeremy_green]

personally i think that solo is god awful... meh

 

 

Really? Couldnt disagree more.

 

Sure it's not flashy but damn what a singable melody and PERFECT for that song. Cant really imagine a different one in there akin to a David Gilmour solo. Lots of great bits (nice bends, tasty vibrato, slides scrapes, energy) in there. Overall generally excellent guitar playing AND mixing scales (super pentatonic) to boot. Certainly something any player could be able to learn from.

 

I used to think solos like that were lame too. Until I spent years to understand how truly difficult it is to write one like it. Simple does not mean Easy, certainly not "God awful." Phrases like that are reserved for those who can do better - of which I am not one.

 

You sure you actually want to use this scale man?

[benzem]

I learned something here, even if the OP did not.

I know/understand the "super pentatonic" scale!

This sounds way better than "combining maj and minor pent.." when teaching.

Thank you.

[meganutt7]

I think Carmen needs to figure out what he wants to do with this scale. I personally would just listen to a bunch of BB King, Gatemouth Brown and the old blues guys that actually used the {censored} out of this scale.. plus, of course, Jimmy Herring, Derek Trucks, Trey from Phish, The Allman Brothers, Skynard, I mean.. I could rattle of names of bands/artists that use variations on this "scale" all day long. The bottom line is, if you don't like Angus' solo or solos aesthetically ,don't listen to them and don't try to learn them. Why don't you start by picking a LICK from a solo you like and try to APPLY IT to one of your tracks... Then take that lick and try to make VARIATIONS out of it. That way you're creating YOUR OWN VOCABULARY, not just copying someone elses' solos.

Sounds to me like you're looking for an easy formulaic method that says "if you do this, it'll be awesome" when. in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. 90% of the time, it's not about WHAT YOU PLAY, it's about HOW YOU PLAY IT and WHY YOU PLAY IT!!

Having said all that, good luck!!

[[Animals2]]

He's just changing the key of the scale when the chords change key, nothing magical (or random about it).. You asked a question, got a {censored} load of good answers from the guys here, links to Gens site.. What more do you need ??

 

 

 

Somebody to learn how to play guitar for him:idk:

[CarmenJuandeago]

Sounds to me like you're looking for an easy formulaic method that says "if you do this, it'll be awesome" when. in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. 90% of the time, it's not about WHAT YOU PLAY, it's about HOW YOU PLAY IT and WHY YOU PLAY IT!! Having said all that, good luck!!

 

 

all i wanted was a general list of rules ... but i guess that doesn't exist so i'll just make my own

 

what i wanted was something like this

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-4-5.html

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-scales.html

http://www.jazzcenter.org/index.htm?http://www.jazzcenter.org/cw-jrc/scales.htm

 

etc:

 

 

Pentatonic Scale

 

The pentatonic scale is probably the scale with the most uses. Since the scale only consists of five notes (penta=five) it is very compatible. Not only for inside playing (playing inside the chords) but for outside playing as well. Now, on this page I will confine myself to the uses for playing inside the chords. Mayby in the future I will dedicate a page to various "outside-techniques".

 

Most people make a difference between the major and the minor pentatonic scale. Of course: you can practice both, but it might be easier to realise that due to the "parallel-key phenomenon" every major pentatonic scale is the same as the minor pentatonic scale of the parallel key. For example: C-major = A-minor, E-major = C#(Db)-minor and F-major = D-minor. So I would say: practice either the major or the minor pentatonic scales and learn the parallel keys!!

 

For the examples I will take a C-major pentatonic scale (=A-minor pentatonic scale). This scale consists of the following notes:

 

C D E G A

 

You can use this C-major pentatonic scale on the following maj7 or 6 chords:

 

- Cmaj7/C6

Normal sound.

 

- Fmaj7/F6

Normal sound, but this time you are avoiding the root (which to me sounds better!)

 

- Bbmaj7/Bb6

Lydian sound. Very nice, but be sure to use this with taste.

 

 

 

You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following min6/minMaj7 chords:

 

- Amin6/AminMaj7

Although the scale contains a b7 it still sounds very natural.

 

- Gmin/GminMaj7

The scale is harmonically correct; it can however sound really terrible, because the sixth and the ninth are there, but the third is missing. It can also sound quite "hip" though, if you use the scale as a outside-scale (but you'd have to be an experienced player for that!).

 

 

 

You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following min.7 chords:

 

- Amin7

Normal sound.

 

- Dmin7

Somewhat more modern.

 

- Gmin7

Most modern of the three choices on Gmin7. (If you would transpose the two example above for Gmin7 you would get Bb pentatonic and F pentatonic and of course C pentatonic with Bb being the least modern and C the most modern.)

 

 

 

You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following dominants:

 

- C7

Normal, almost old fashioned sound.

 

- F#7

Altered sound: b9, b13.

 

- A7

Strictly spoken this is a b10 sound, but I recommend using it on a blues. In this case that would be a blues in A.

 

 

 

You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following sus(4) chords:

 

- D7sus

Normal sound.

 

- G7sus

Somewhat more modern.

 

- C7sus

I consider this most modern, because in this case the used scale is not representing the chord: you're actually playing a normal third now!

 

 

 

 

(except more of this applied to more rock setting)

 

 

 

 

but instead i get flamed because i don't like AC/DC, or work through 30 pages of lessons of blues rock licks

[CarmenJuandeago]

So what? I don't like it either....why does that matter? Got news...it doesn't. Your opinion of it has no bearing to the applicability of it's principles. It is AN EXAMPLE. Nothing more. Why you keep hiding behind that, mang?

i don't feel like learning anything i don't like musically. why learn the principles of something you don't want to play?

[jeremy_green]

but instead i get flamed because i don't like AC/DC

 

 

Is that really how you read all this? That's a shame.

 

From what I read people seem frustrated because you don't seem to flexible about HOW you get answers. You seem to ONLY want to do things your way, which begs the question why ask all of us?

 

Peace

[CarmenJuandeago]

Is that really how you read all this? That's a shame. From what I read people seem frustrated because you don't seem to flexible about HOW you get answers. You seem to ONLY want to do things your way, which begs the question why ask all of us? Peace

well if you ask for something specifically in the first post, and you get something else

i dont think it would be that hard for all the more experienced players to list just one thing they like using against a certain chord when they are improvising
right?

[jeremy_green]

Your question was how to use the scale. Mo pointed you to a great working example. Others followed. If we were in the same room sure we could show you. We aren't. So the only way is to refer you to examples. Thing is You don't seem open to any of them or the styles that use it.

 

Not flamin. Just sayin you seem really resistant to peoples input

[CarmenJuandeago]

i dont think it would be that hard for all the more experienced players to list just one thing they like using against a certain chord when they are improvising

right?

 

with the internet people basically are in the same room... why can't people show us?

[3shiftgtr]

i don't feel like learning anything i don't like musically. why learn the principles of something you don't want to play?

 

 

Ah ha! Now we are getting somewhere. Look Carmen, no here is ripping on you...o.k. Virg took a shot...never mind him, he's a sarcastic old fuddy duddy:lol:....you aren't getting flamed. Everyone is here to help. Most of us are older and remember what it was like to think that everything sucks except for what they liked. Why learn what sucks? We all get that. Many of us went thru that phase when we were young (thus Virg's choice of images) I was tough on you because you needed "a shove" to wake you up! Because in truth, that attitude is an excuse. So let's break this down. I'm not trying to prove anything here, I just want to help. I've been there.

 

You don't want to learn anything you don't "like". Got it. But then you ask why should you learn the principals of something you don't like? The problem with that ideology is that you have it backwards. You asked about "super pentatonic". You were given it's principals, and the information was delivered to you. You then rejected rejected the INFO cuz you didn't think the EXAMPLES were cool. Here's the thing you need to understand: the examples ARE NOT the info. It is the application of the info. Nothing more.

 

It is like asking for info on how to change your oil. Then someone gives it to you, and says here's a junker to practice on. And you turn around and say "That car sucks. I'm not changing the oil on that car." So you never learn how cuz it is not a Porsche. You could wait for a Porsche to come along, but why? If you REALLY want to learn it, you wouldn't be prejudiced to the junker. The car becomes the EXCUSE not to learn it.

 

You are mad cuz you got "a general list of rules". Well, that is what you asked for! If just you want the licks, then you really don't want the principles, do you? What do you think the explanation of a scale is, Carmen? How you apply it has analysis....and that is what you have been given. But you are rejecting it and then getting butthurt cuz you think we care that you don't like the examples. We don't. The point is YOU HAVE TO ANALYZE THE EXAMPLES IF YOU WANT TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT. That is why several have asked if you really want to learn the scale.

 

But if you are prejudiced to the examples, then you must invent a way to make it work YOUR WAY...bypass the examples...then you are left with a "general list of rules". You can't get around this....you either analyze the examples, apply it yourself and make it do what you want it to, or both. There are no other things you can do.

But this is important and bears repeating....

YOU HAVE TO ANALYZE THE EXAMPLES IF YOU WANT TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT. "Fully" being the key word.....

[CarmenJuandeago]

but i didn't get a general list of rules. i got a bunch of licks

i wanted something like the stuff i posted on the 3rd page---- general guidelines

[mosiddiqi]

well if you ask for something specifically in the first post, and you get something else i dont think it would be that hard for all the more experienced players to list just one thing they like using against a certain chord when they are improvising right?

 

Ok, two specifics. I really like the sound of the the 9 against a minor chord..so B against Aminor..and the 6 against a Maj chord so F# against A Major. I often resolve to those notes instead of the root or third.

[CarmenJuandeago]

Ok, two specifics. I really like the sound of the the 9 against a minor chord..so B against Aminor..and the 6 against a Maj chord so F# against A Major. I often resolve to those notes instead of the root or third.

 

 

THANK YOU:thu:

this was exactly what i was looking for

[mosiddiqi]

THANK YOU:thu: this was exactly what i was looking for

 

You're welcome. Right, get off the internet and get to work

[meganutt7]

all i wanted was a general list of rules ... but i guess that doesn't exist so i'll just make my own what i wanted was something like this http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/ms-primer-4-5.html http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-scales.html http://www.jazzcenter.org/index.htm?http://www.jazzcenter.org/cw-jrc/scales.htm etc: Pentatonic Scale The pentatonic scale is probably the scale with the most uses. Since the scale only consists of five notes (penta=five) it is very compatible. Not only for inside playing (playing inside the chords) but for outside playing as well. Now, on this page I will confine myself to the uses for playing inside the chords. Mayby in the future I will dedicate a page to various "outside-techniques". Most people make a difference between the major and the minor pentatonic scale. Of course: you can practice both, but it might be easier to realise that due to the "parallel-key phenomenon" every major pentatonic scale is the same as the minor pentatonic scale of the parallel key. For example: C-major = A-minor, E-major = C#(Db)-minor and F-major = D-minor. So I would say: practice either the major or the minor pentatonic scales and learn the parallel keys!! For the examples I will take a C-major pentatonic scale (=A-minor pentatonic scale). This scale consists of the following notes: C D E G A You can use this C-major pentatonic scale on the following maj7 or 6 chords: - Cmaj7/C6 Normal sound. - Fmaj7/F6 Normal sound, but this time you are avoiding the root (which to me sounds better!) - Bbmaj7/Bb6 Lydian sound. Very nice, but be sure to use this with taste. You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following min6/minMaj7 chords: - Amin6/AminMaj7 Although the scale contains a b7 it still sounds very natural. - Gmin/GminMaj7 The scale is harmonically correct; it can however sound really terrible, because the sixth and the ninth are there, but the third is missing. It can also sound quite "hip" though, if you use the scale as a outside-scale (but you'd have to be an experienced player for that!). You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following min.7 chords: - Amin7 Normal sound. - Dmin7 Somewhat more modern. - Gmin7 Most modern of the three choices on Gmin7. (If you would transpose the two example above for Gmin7 you would get Bb pentatonic and F pentatonic and of course C pentatonic with Bb being the least modern and C the most modern.) You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following dominants: - C7 Normal, almost old fashioned sound. - F#7 Altered sound: b9, b13. - A7 Strictly spoken this is a b10 sound, but I recommend using it on a blues. In this case that would be a blues in A. You can also use the C-major pentatonic scale on the following sus(4) chords: - D7sus Normal sound. - G7sus Somewhat more modern. - C7sus I consider this most modern, because in this case the used scale is not representing the chord: you're actually playing a normal third now! (except more of this applied to more rock setting) but instead i get flamed because i don't like AC/DC, or work through 30 pages of lessons of blues rock licks

 

 

You are looking for shortcuts and the truth is, like Jeremy said, there aren't any. you have to LISTEN TO NOTES AGAINST CHORDS TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO SOUND LIKE. You can hate on AC/DC or Blues music all you like. That is your right. But you need to realize you are asking about RULES about a "super pentatonic" which is primarily used and was most likely developed as an outgrowth of those styles that you are bashing. I thought you wrote that you liked Hendrix. Well listen to some Hendrix songs, figure out the licks and see how HE applied this scale. Then take another artist you like and figure out how they used it.

 

The rules and guidelines section you attached is not really in line wit hthe "super pentatonic" scale as we're calling it here. That is a completely different animal. If you actually play through it over backing tracks or loops, you will begin to HEAR the sounds this scale can generate and formulate your own opinions about it.

 

Don't knock everyone trying to give you advice, bro.

 

Jeremy and all the rest (including me) have nothing but the best intentions for everyone here. We want to see people excell. But if you ask for advice but then don't like the answers you get, that isn't on us, so you should try to be a little less snide and sarcastic about it.

 

We're just trying to help, bro.

[meganutt7]

THANK YOU:thu: this was exactly what i was looking for

 

 

Not to be too over the top about my original post on this, but if you actually played the 9th over a minor chord, a few times, you would have been able to make that call for yourself. OR said that you do NOT like the way it sounds, so you would eliminate it off your potential notes to play over a minor chord list...

 

I think that learning by doing is better (especially in music) than by other advisement, especially when it comes to intangible things like note choice.

 

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[CarmenJuandeago]

You are looking for shortcuts and the truth is, like Jeremy said, there aren't any. you have to LISTEN TO NOTES AGAINST CHORDS TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO SOUND LIKE. You can hate on AC/DC or Blues music all you like. That is your right. But you need to realize you are asking about RULES about a "super pentatonic" which is primarily used and was most likely developed as an outgrowth of those styles that you are bashing. I thought you wrote that you liked Hendrix. Well listen to some Hendrix songs, figure out the licks and see how HE applied this scale. Then take another artist you like and figure out how they used it. The rules and guidelines section you attached is not really in line wit hthe "super pentatonic" scale as we're calling it here. That is a completely different animal. If you actually play through it over backing tracks or loops, you will begin to HEAR the sounds this scale can generate and formulate your own opinions about it. Don't knock everyone trying to give you advice, bro. Jeremy and all the rest (including me) have nothing but the best intentions for everyone here. We want to see people excell. But if you ask for advice but then don't like the answers you get, that isn't on us, so you should try to be a little less snide and sarcastic about it. We're just trying to help, bro.

 

well then i apologize for not being clear what i wanted in my original post

[jeremy_green]

No worries Carmen it's all good.

 

For me those kinds of lists are almost a complete waste of time. Phrase like:

 

"- C7

Normal, almost old fashioned sound.

 

- F#7

Altered sound: b9, b13."

 

are almost completely ambiguous. What is a "normal" sound??? What is an "Old fashioned" sound? When I was earlier in my playing career phrase like "Altered sound: b9, b13" would send my mind reeling it seemed so confusing.

 

Then one day I learned something - these kinds of discussions mean ZERO to your playing until you actually sit with the instrument in hand and try them yourself. There is no quicker way, there are no golden eggs. Doing it yourself is THE only way you will progress.

 

Teachers dont actually teach you anything - they present it to you. They become teachers only when the student actually learns something. Without the students active participation no actual "teaching" has happened.

 

Being a student of art of any kind requires a very open mind. It is a discussion of abstract concepts that require as little prejudices as possible. We are not talking about 1+1=2's (finite answers) here. The best thing you can learn from anyone is HOW to learn.

 

It took many of us MANY MANY years of trial and error to come to understand all this. I have taught 100s and 100s of people in my almost 30 years of playing. So has Danny and 3shift and most of the experienced members of this forum. Have you noticed that most of us have responded to this question in basically the same way? Why do you think that is? Do you think we are with-holding the goods?

 

Here's "the goods"

 

- write out the scale on paper

- memorize it by paying it

- look at the written scale and find as many recognizable chord shapes you can in it, these chords that scale will work over

- set a looper or backing track and practice using the scale over it

- when you have no ideas listen to all the crappy examples presented here

- steal parts you can tolerate

 

This is the approach with any scale. Working examples are the secret to hearing different ways to apply this crud. Which is why they were given.

 

You want us to help you - you gotta trust us a bit.

"only when the student is ready does the teacher appear"

 

wise words.

[meganutt7]

well then i apologize for not being clear what i wanted in my original post

Carmen,

No worries, my friend.

The truth of the matter is, especially if you truly love music... Eventually you will come to believe that being presented with PURE INFORMATION is best, because then YOU have to supply the work. The hearing, the technique, the ideas of how to manipulate a certain concept, etc.

because that freedom and that responsibility make you a UNIQUE player that has ORIGINAL IDEAS that come from years of connecting the dots in your own way.

I think most of my favorite books are like that (music instruction books, I mean...)

Check out any Mick Goodrick book, the Wayne Krantz "Improvisor's OS" book, Dave Liebmans' books, etc. They all touch on the concept, MAYBE giving one example, but they leave the FIGURING IT OUT to YOU.

This ensures that you: (1) will use your mind as much as your fingers to really get a better grasp of music in all facets; (2) you will develop a unique style and/or approach to understanding/applying musical concepts; and (3) Will end up appreciating things more when you learn them.

[3shiftgtr]

but i didn't get a general list of rules. i got a bunch of licks i wanted something like the stuff i posted on the 3rd page---- general guidelines

 

 

O.k., I re read this thread. And I think I see how you would think that your question isn't getting answered. So let me clarify what you actually need by asking you a few questions, if that is cool. Let's get to the bottom of this!

 

When you described "super pentatonic" you described it as the notes of the major pent and the notes of the minor pent in one scale. Is that your understanding of it?

 

Ex: C maj pent C, D, E, G A and the C min pent is C, D#, F, G, Bb.

Combining the two gives you what you are calling the "Super Pentatonic": C, D, D#, E, F, G, A, Bb. Intervallically it is 1, 2, 3b, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7b.

 

Is that what you understand to be the Super Pentatonic?

[meganutt7]

O.k., I re read this thread. And I think I see how you would think that your question isn't getting answered. So let me clarify what you actually need by asking you a few questions, if that is cool. Let's get to the bottom of this! When you described "super pentatonic" you described it as the notes of the major pent and the notes of the minor pent in one scale. Is that your understanding of it? Ex: C maj pent C, D, E, G A and the C min pent is C, D#, F, G, Bb. Combining the two gives you what you are calling the "Super Pentatonic": C, D, D#, E, F, G, A, Bb. Intervallically it is 1, 2, 3b, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7b. Is that what you understand to be the Super Pentatonic?

 

 

That is what I understood as the scale, based on Carmen's writings, 3shift...

 

Now, if you think about that scale as its own entity, it sort of fall into that hybrid dorian/mixolydian vibe "bluesy" "jazzy" "jammy" scale... To me, that is the type of thing you would play over a dominant 7th chord or perhaps a minor 7th chord.

 

But again, that doesn't tell you much...