Members gnr2391 Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 Lets assume all these chords have a roof of A. In case what key would I play in for each of these chords? -7 b13 (Can i just view this as an augment 7?)b13 b9
Members gennation Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 It's best to take your progression ("tune") and text it up like a chart... like... ||: Ebm7 | Ebm7 | Emaj9 | Emaj9 | Ebm7 | Ebm7 | Emaj9 | Emaj9 | Bbm11 | A7b5 | Gbmaj7 | Bmaj7 | Bb7 :|| If you are going to play changes, lets see the changes...the example above will be pretty clear cut for an explanation...but if it's static like the chords you listed against "A", lay it out as static...like... ||: A7 :|| All of the chord you have listed go hand in hand with each other statically but have a few different direct directions if they are in a progression. Statically they are all nothing but ||: A7 :|| (even the E9#5) So...you mention you "need to nail these tunes"...lay out the tunes, the progressions. Lets see them.
Members gennation Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 Also, in text...if it minor, use a small 'm'. All your dashes look minor, which means the -m7b5 looks like it's a "double minor'. Don't mean to be a texthead but type up exactly what you are looking for to get the best direct response instead of "well, if you mean...".
Members Jasco Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 Lets assume all these chords have a roof of A. In case what key would I play in for each of these chords? -7 b13 (Can i just view this as an augment 7?)b13 b9
Poparad Posted August 6, 2010 Posted August 6, 2010 7 b13 (Can i just view this as an augment 7?) You could, however, it might not always work. Most people would interpret that as having a natural 5 along with the b13, so treating it like an augmented might run a risk of a clash, depending on what you play and what everyone else is playing. The two most common sounds for that would be A Phrygian Dominant and A Altered. b13 b9
Members JonR Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 --7b5 (Can I view this as a sharp 11?)Probably not. Go by context, but 7b5 should indicate wholetone scale. If a 7#11 (lydian dominant) is required then that's the symbol that should be used).But either may work! In all these cases, look at surrounding context - key, and chords either side. What is that chord doing? What's its job? You can't just apply scales according to a rule book like this - at most they are guidelines. It's a real mistake to isolate chords from their context and function. (Except in modal music where they have none - and the above are not modal chords, with the possible exception of 7sus4.)
Members meganutt7 Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 You could, however, it might not always work. Most people would interpret that as having a natural 5 along with the b13, so treating it like an augmented might run a risk of a clash, depending on what you play and what everyone else is playing.The two most common sounds for that would be A Phrygian Dominant and A Altered.This is the same chord as above, and yes to both of those substitutions.For A Altered, which is also called A Diminished-Wholetone and also A Super Locrian, it's a mode of Bb melodic minor. The chord right above A7(b9,b13) in the scale is Bbm6, and the chord right below is is Gm7b5.For A Phyrgian Dominant (which is also D harmonic minor) these same two subs will work, although only due to an enharmonic respelling of the notes. The chord above A7(b9,b13) is Bb6, but there's also a C# in the scale, so if you replace the D in the Bb6 chord with the C# in from the scale, you get the sound of Bbm6. The chord below is Gm7, but there's still that same C# in the scale. If you replace the D of Gm7 with the C#, enharmonically it will sound just like Gm7b5.A haf-whole diminished, aka the Octatonic scale.This can be a number of things:A phyrigian dominant - there's a diminished 7th apreggio within this scaleA half-whole diminished - there's obviously a diminished arpeggio in this tooA altered - no diminished 7th in this oneYes.This would definitely be an augmented 7th. The whole tone scale is appropriate here.However, most of the time you'd see 7#5, the sound that is really intended is the 7b13 sound from Phrygian Dominant.Yes. the minor6 chord can be Dorian or Melodic Minor. The same four notes also spell m7b5 just as you mentioned. It's a good idea though to be able to think of it both ways, and not just one.This you would absolutely not want to think of as #11. This sound is either from Locrian or from Locrian Natural 2 (6th mode of Melodic Minor). Both scales have a natural 11th in them.There is a m7(#11) chord in the harmonic minor scale, but it is extremely uncommon. I can only think of one tune by Allan Holdsworth (who has a very unusual sense of harmony anyway) that I've ever even seen it.To summarize each scale mentioned:Altered/Super Locrian/Diminished-Wholetone:1 b2 #2 3 b5 b6 b7Phrygian Dominant:1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7Half-Whole Diminished:1 b2 #2 3 #4 5 6 b7Whole Tone:1 2 3 #4 #5 b7Locrian:1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7Locrian Natural 2:1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7Melodic Minor:1 2 b3 4 5 6 7Harmonic Minor:1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7Dorian:1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7Mixolydian:1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 39 Thumbs up on this one, Jeremey!!! Well done, well illustrated and logical!!!
Poparad Posted August 6, 2010 Posted August 6, 2010 In the sense that b13 = #5, probably yes. In conventional jazz anyway. That symbol might be used in place of 7#5 to allow for the fact that a bass might use a P5 under the chord.Harmonic minor (phrygian dominant) will fit, but is a rare choice in conventional jazz. Harmonic minor is extremely common in conventional jazz. Jazz is built around ii-V-I progressions in major and minor keys. In minor keys, that V chord is a V7b13 chord from harmonic minor. Harmonic minor was a widely used sound before anything like the melodic minor scale or diminished scale became standard sounds in jazz.
Members JonR Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 Harmonic minor was a widely used sound before anything like the melodic minor scale or diminished scale became standard sounds in jazz.I'll take your word. I guess my view has been poisoned by Mark Levine, who claims to have almost never heard it in the material he used for reference for his Jazz Theory Book. (His explanation was the "avoid note" issue.) But then, I've grown increasingly suspicious of Levine's whole chord-scale approach over recent years... That was never the way I worked when improvising anyway, but for a while I was awed by his apparent authority, not to mention most of the jazz education I've received over the last 20 years. Now I believe - having encountered various other views - I was right all along in my intuitive approach (chord tones, diatonic scales, chromatic approaches). I still haven't (knowingly) heard much harmonic minor improv in jazz, however. Would appreciate references to particular recordings.
Poparad Posted August 6, 2010 Posted August 6, 2010 I realise the V and vii of minor keys are harmonised from harmonic minor. That doesn't necessarily imply that scale is used in improvisation...I'll take your word. I guess my view has been poisoned by Mark Levine, who claims to have almost never heard it in the material he used for reference for his Jazz Theory Book. (His explanation was the "avoid note" issue.)But then, I've grown increasingly suspicious of Levine's whole chord-scale approach over recent years... That was never the way I worked when improvising anyway, but for a while I was awed by his apparent authority, not to mention most of the jazz education I've received over the last 20 years. Now I believe - having encountered various other views - I was right all along in my intuitive approach (chord tones, diatonic scales, chromatic approaches).I still haven't (knowingly) heard much harmonic minor improv in jazz, however. Would appreciate references to particular recordings. Just find any tune with a minor V-i and you'll see it used. Tunes like "Softly, As in a Morning Sunrise," "Blue Bossa," "Stella By Starlight," "There Will Never Be Another You," and so on, all prominently have minor ii-V-i's in them, and the V chords are almost always defaulty treated with phrygian dominant. Take "Solar," for example. The last bar of the tune is ii V in Cm, and the melody is simply an ascending C harmonic minor scale.
Members Jasco Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 I still haven't (knowingly) heard much harmonic minor improv in jazz, however. Would appreciate references to particular recordings. I wouldn't label myself as a jazz expert by any means, but in a lot of the Django Reinhardt solos I've transcribed, his playing seems to lean towards implying harmonic minor rather than melodic minor over V chords. Now whether he was actually thinking "harmonic minor", or "diminished half step up from the V", or "7b9 arpeggios", or "these are some fretboard shapes that sound good", I'll never know.
Members meganutt7 Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 I realise the V and vii of minor keys are harmonised from harmonic minor. That doesn't necessarily imply that scale is used in improvisation...I'll take your word. I guess my view has been poisoned by Mark Levine, who claims to have almost never heard it in the material he used for reference for his Jazz Theory Book. (His explanation was the "avoid note" issue.)But then, I've grown increasingly suspicious of Levine's whole chord-scale approach over recent years... That was never the way I worked when improvising anyway, but for a while I was awed by his apparent authority, not to mention most of the jazz education I've received over the last 20 years. Now I believe - having encountered various other views - I was right all along in my intuitive approach (chord tones, diatonic scales, chromatic approaches).I still haven't (knowingly) heard much harmonic minor improv in jazz, however. Would appreciate references to particular recordings. Yeah, Charlie Parker and the whole bop crew were VERY fond of Harmonic Minor (or at least Phrygian Dominant) for the ii-V progressions in Minor.... They didn't really start using the Locrian natural 2 and altered scale until later...
Members meganutt7 Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 I wouldn't label myself as a jazz expert by any means, but in a lot of the Django Reinhardt solos I've transcribed, his playing seems to lean towards implying harmonic minor rather than melodic minor over V chords. Now whether he was actually thinking "harmonic minor", or "diminished half step up from the V", or "7b9 arpeggios", or "these are some fretboard shapes that sound good", I'll never know. The thing about Django, is he playes alot of MELODIC minor over the I chord.... This gives you the tension of the Major 6 and 7 over a minor chord... Then, over the V chord, he usually plays Harmonic Minor, as it ramps into the Tonic better (it hasa much more DOMINANT feel than Meldoci Minor, which to me tends to feel more like an unresolvable tension type of scale... Again, this is just me talking here...)
Members gennation Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 The Harmonic Minor vs Melodic Minor over a IIm-V7-Im is a long standing forum thread burner. The Harmonic Minor Minor has a lot to do with common melodies, but the all Melodic Minor method has to do with some great outside lines and 'floating' directional playing. Personally they both have their purpose song wise and improv wise. The Harmonic Minor method is just straight Minor Key stuff and really nothing more. The Melodic Minor method gives you three Melodic Minor, one is a Melodic Minor from the m3rd of the IIm chord, then a Melodic Minor a half step up from the V7 (Super Locrian), and a Melodic Minor directly on the Im chord. So for Dm-G7-Cm you'd play...F Mel Min-Ab Mel Min-C Mel Min respectively. This creates the Dm7b5 sound for Dm7, the G7alt sound for G7, and your straight Minor resolution for Cm. These method are nothing new but personally both have their purpose song wise and improv wise.
Members JonR Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 Take "Solar," for example. The last bar of the tune is ii V in Cm, and the melody is simply an ascending C harmonic minor scale.Yes, but again, that's the tune, not an improvisation.I'm obviously not arguing from any authoritative viewpoint myself, but I respect your knowledge and I'm just hoping for some evidence of your view. (I'm sure you must have some.)
Members JonR Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 I wouldn't label myself as a jazz expert by any means, but in a lot of the Django Reinhardt solos I've transcribed, his playing seems to lean towards implying harmonic minor rather than melodic minor over V chords. Now whether he was actually thinking "harmonic minor", or "diminished half step up from the V", or "7b9 arpeggios", or "these are some fretboard shapes that sound good", I'll never know.Right. I notice you say "implying" harmonic minor. It is of course impossible to say how he was thinking, and I have heard a lot of what look like diminished runs in his playing - and of course some partial scale runs could be interpreted either way. Do you have a clear example of harmonic minor in his playing?As with Poparad, I'm not doubting you, I'm just short of examples of harmonic minor soloing and would like some!
Members JonR Posted August 6, 2010 Members Posted August 6, 2010 Then, over the V chord, he usually plays Harmonic Minor, as it ramps into the Tonic better (it hasa much more DOMINANT feel than Meldoci Minor, which to me tends to feel more like an unresolvable tension type of scale... Again, this is just me talking here...)Interesting point. Melodic minor resolves very strongly if moving upward, of course, but harmonic minor has the advantage of the 7>1 upward step combined with the b6>5 downward one. These are all theoretical points though. I want to hear some examples!
Members Jasco Posted August 7, 2010 Members Posted August 7, 2010 Right. I notice you say "implying" harmonic minor. It is of course impossible to say how he was thinking, and I have heard a lot of what look like diminished runs in his playing - and of course some partial scale runs could be interpreted either way. Do you have a clear example of harmonic minor in his playing?As with Poparad, I'm not doubting you, I'm just short of examples of harmonic minor soloing and would like some! Check out any of his many versions of Minor Swing, and you'll find what I and meganutt are talking about. Most gypsy jazz cats will use minor 6 chords any time a minor chord is called for, therefore implying more of a melodic minor sound as meganutt said. But the reason I said "implying" was that I don't hear many "up and down a scale" type runs, leading me to hypothesize that the gypsy jazz players are thinking chord tones more than scales. My own poor-man's soloing imitation of that particular sound can be summed up in this brief generalization: Use triads with neighboring tones a half step below and scale step above. The 6 is the extra 'go-to' note for major and minor chords, and the b9 is the extra 'go-to' note for dominant chords.
Members gennation Posted August 7, 2010 Members Posted August 7, 2010 Yes, PLENTY of m6 chords in the gypsy jazz style.
Poparad Posted August 7, 2010 Posted August 7, 2010 Again, I'm going to take your word for the moment. It still sounds like you're talking principle, by mentioning the chords first. Obviously those tunes have minor ii-Vs in them, that's not in question. I realise I'm being lazy here, but I'd like specific examples of solo players using harmonic minor in those instances. I guess I'm just a little surprised that Mark Levine could have listened to so much jazz and not heard it - or (maybe worse) deliberately ignored it. I'm embarrassed to say I've not done a huge amount of solo transcription myself, but I haven't found it even in Django Reinhardt, where I might expect it. Yes, but again, that's the tune, not an improvisation.I'm obviously not arguing from any authoritative viewpoint myself, but I respect your knowledge and I'm just hoping for some evidence of your view. (I'm sure you must have some.) Just listen to any solo over a tune that has minor ii-V's in it and you'll hear it. This is like believing that rock players never use the blues scale.
Members JonR Posted August 7, 2010 Members Posted August 7, 2010 My own poor-man's soloing imitation of that particular sound can be summed up in this brief generalization:Use triads with neighboring tones a half step below and scale step above. The 6 is the extra 'go-to' note for major and minor chords, and the b9 is the extra 'go-to' note for dominant chords.That's also more or less exactly my approach! With the exception of the b9 on dominants, it works for any chord, and in major keys, too.I guess it's the way I learned because that's what I heard players doing- although I didn't particularly conceptualise it in that way. (Like finding major pents work without knowing the term.) I have to say that when - much later - I encountered chord-scale theory, I found it fascinating in its own right, and understood the principles, without caring too much if it really aligned with jazz practice as I knew it. (I began taking jazz lessons before I'd really heard much bebop at all. I'd been playing swing mostly, along with blues and rock of course.) IOW, it had an intellectual appeal, over and above any practical application. It made sense, especially the "avoid note"idea.Over the last few years, though, I've gradually weaned myself off it, and come back to something like my previous self-taught system - which I had regarded as "uneducated", but in fact seems more and more to chime with what jazz musicians in general actually do. So, I'm sure there are many examples of chord-scale theory in practice in the jazz canon (employed consciously or unconsciously by the players themselves) - but equally there's a hell of a lot of playing where that theory is not too much use in explaining it.
Members JonR Posted August 7, 2010 Members Posted August 7, 2010 Just listen to any solo over a tune that has minor ii-V's in it and you'll hear it. This is like believing that rock players never use the blues scale. With respect, that's not really a very useful response. I just wanted specific examples. In fact, I've just checked through my Parker Omnibook (quicker than going through countless recordings), and found snippets that can easily be interpreted as harmonic minor - at least a partial use of that scale. Of course, the other interpretation (which amounts to the same thing;)) is that he is using chord tones with diatonic passing notes. I suspect that would be how he thought of it, as most of his playing was arpeggio-based. Naturally, over a minor ii-V, that results in harmonic minor if we use a scale-based interpretation. It may be worth quoting Mark Levine's opinion on harmonic minor here - not because I agree with it (I don't have the experience to agree or disagree), but because it makes sense in itself, and is revealing of his approach. Firstly, he only talks about harmonic minor almost grudgingly, saving it till p.476 in his 500+ page book, dumping it in a chapter called "Loose Ends", along with the harmonic major scale and a few "myths" of jazz harmony. He spends all of two pages on it (including a lot of white space). "Wouldn't it be nice if a single scale sounded great over all three chords of a minor II-V-I? It would be, but there is no such scale. The harmonic minor scale, prevalent in classical and folk music, is often mentioned in theory books as "the scale played over a minor II-V-I." If that were true, you'd hear the great players playing the harmonic minor scale a lot on II-V-I progressions, but they don't. They play fragments of it, but very rarely the entire scale."[My emphasis.] IOW, his criterion for players "using" it is they need to use the whole thing clearly, not just "fragments" of it. (He agrees they do the latter; that's not enough for him.) He goes on to mention the distinctive augmented 2nd in the scale - in fact makes the howling theoretical error of calling it a "minor 3rd"! - which is for him the prime indicator of it. It's what makes the scale different from any other, what gives it its characteristic sound. It's that sound he seems to find practically absent from jazz. He does admit that "Some players - Booker Ervin and Bud Powell for example - have played harmonic minor scale patterns frequently, while other great players don't play them at all." He duly gives a Bud Powell quote, a six 8th-note phrase, which demonstrates, as he says, how "the harmonic minor scale is most often played over V7b9 chords resolving to a minor chord a 5th below." Well, duh! His second, lengthier quote is from Joe Henderson, playing a C harmonic minor scale run over G7b9 to a Cm. Then he presents his real thinking on the scale: "One reason the harmonic minor scale is seldom played in its entirety [my emphasis] is that it fits no one particular chord [his emphasis]. No matter what chord you play it on, at least one note, if held against the chord, sounds like an "avoid note". That's his pianist mind talking, of course! Only a musician capable of holding down that many notes at once would come to that kind of conclusion. We might well say "well, duh!" That doesn't stop you using harmonic minor - it only stops you holding those specific notes against the chord! (To be fair, he is quite clear elsewhere that "avoid note" doesn't mean "don't play that note at all"- ony "treat it with care".) The point here is that it seems he has not heard the harmonic minor scale "in its entirety" almost anywhere in the mind-bogglingly extensive collection of jazz recordings he lists in an appendix as "essential listening". The "avoid note" hypothesis is the explanation he comes up with for its absence (other than those "fragments" he presumably regards as insignificant). And in fact, that hypothesis also explains the use of the various melodic minor modes, in situations where the chords alone might suggest a diatonic major or minor scale would be fine. Eg, mixolydian mode has one avoid note - hence the preference for altered or diminished scales on dom7s. Ionian has one avoid note - hence the preference for lydian on tonic majors. Natural minor has an avoid note - hence the preference for melodic minor on tonic minors. And harmonic minor has 2 avoid notes on its V chord - hence... (etc). IOW, the system hangs together intellectually, as well as explaining this apparent absence of the "entire" harmonic minor scale as an improv scale in jazz. Of course, we may wish to take with a huge pinch of salt the opinion of any self-proclaimed writer on music theory who is careless enough to call an augmented 2nd a minor 3rd!
Poparad Posted August 7, 2010 Posted August 7, 2010 This is certainly a case of getting way too hung up on semantics and unimportant details. Anytime I see the term "avoid note" getting thrown around, an alarm goes off in my head that something is being dumbed down and the point is being missed. In reality, there are no avoid notes, as you can find a creative and effective way to use any note in a scale. Two other things to consider: How frequently do you see examples in the Omnibook of Parker playing a complete major scale? It's just as infrequent, because he's usually doing something more interesting with the scale than running it up and down, and a lot of the time chords don't last long enough to hit every single note in the scale. The other point: what is the origin of the harmonic minor scale anyway? It's the result of chromatically changing one note in the harmony of a minor key. The thing wasn't even originally a "scale" per se, so arguing that they play it more around the harmony is missing the point of what the harmonic minor scale is in the first place. Looking at those Omnibook things again, you say that it's only fragments of the harmonic minor scale, but it's still the harmonic minor scale. They're not fragments of the major scale, or the melodic minor scale, or the whole tone scale. It's still the harmonic minor scale. A painter doesn't have to always use every color on his palette to still have a palette with every color available.
Members JonR Posted August 7, 2010 Members Posted August 7, 2010 This is certainly a case of getting way too hung up on semantics and unimportant details. Anytime I see the term "avoid note" getting thrown around, an alarm goes off in my head that something is being dumbed down and the point is being missed. In reality, there are no avoid notes, as you can find a creative and effective way to use any note in a scale. Two other things to consider: How frequently do you see examples in the Omnibook of Parker playing a complete major scale? It's just as infrequent, because he's usually doing something more interesting with the scale than running it up and down, and a lot of the time chords don't last long enough to hit every single note in the scale. The other point: what is the origin of the harmonic minor scale anyway? It's the result of chromatically changing one note in the harmony of a minor key. The thing wasn't even originally a "scale" per se, so arguing that they play it more around the harmony is missing the point of what the harmonic minor scale is in the first place. Looking at those Omnibook things again, you say that it's only fragments of the harmonic minor scale, but it's still the harmonic minor scale. They're not fragments of the major scale, or the melodic minor scale, or the whole tone scale. It's still the harmonic minor scale. A painter doesn't have to always use every color on his palette to still have a palette with every color available. All agreed. I think - to play devil's advocate - the issue of the "fragments" is that those notes involved could be part of other scales, such as diminished, perhaps. I think Levine's point might be: "don't assume harmonic minor just because the notes player X used fit that scale - because the notes from that scale that he doesn't use may not work, and maybe the notes he does use can be interpreted in a better way (if we want to invoke a complete scale)." I think the only objection to harmonic minor is this issue of "avoid notes" - which I agree are often misunderstood. They are a harmonic issue to begin with - a question of harmonic intervals (chord extensions), not melodic ones. So, a pianist might play a 7b9 chord and grimace as he adds a b13 (from harmonic minor) on top - so he prefers to raise it to a major 13. Or alternatively he might keep the b13 and lose the P5 lower down, so the b13 becomes in effect a #5. He might also want to add an 11th, but finds the diatonic perfect 11th painful - so he raises it. All of which obviously has ramifications for a scale that might be chosen by a soloist to play over it. That's really the appeal of chord-scale theory: here are a bunch of scales with no avoid notes: unlike those diatonic major and minor scales (and most of their modes), you can take any note from these scales and use it as a chord extension/alteration! (I can imagine how exciting a concept that is for a pianist...) Of course, if one has never - in innocent practice - encountered such a thing as an "avoid note" (as you say, with a bit of intelligent creativity we can make any note work), then one might wonder what all the fuss is about. I blame the pianists.... (or rather the piano-playing theorists...)
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