what key is Free Bird in?

[JonR]

Others may play a Bm pentatonic over it to emphasize the D tonality (Bm pent = D maj pent) Others still may play D Mixo/G major over it and really fill in the gaps... just saying is all...

Me too! Let's hope we can stop this tangent right now, and get back to Free Bird...

 

(The full case for both sides of the SHA dispute is argued at mind-boggling - and pointless and inconclusive - length here:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=407446

They tried to kill it there, but it wouldn't die. Don't let the virus spread here! Damn, I knew I shouldn't have brought it up.... )

[gennation]

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=407446 They tried to kill it there, but it wouldn't die. Don't let the virus spread here! Damn, I knew I shouldn't have brought it up.... )

 

I was going to post that thread in response to danny a couple of hours ago, but didn't want to spread it. No talk about SHA is complete without a view of that thread. Best...thread...evar!

[mosiddiqi]

I just looked at a few pages in that TGP thread Can't people just play the fucking song!

[EddieAteD]

Sorry, I contributed to the Sweet Home debate... Back to Free Bird...

 

@Gennation - it sounds like you're saying you view the key signature and the key as synonymous, but maybe I'm misreading you? Surely the key is defined by the root and the pitch collection, so if that pitch collection (or scale) changes, then the key has changed in some way? Major vs minor is obviously inadequate when it comes to progressions like this, but isn't the overall pitch collection closer to Gm in the last part of the song than it is in the first part of the song?

[JonR]

 

Sorry, I contributed to the Sweet Home debate... Back to Free Bird... @Gennation - it sounds like you're saying you view the key signature and the key as synonymous, but maybe I'm misreading you? Surely the key is defined by the root and the pitch collection, so if that pitch collection (or scale) changes, then the key has changed in some way? Major vs minor is obviously inadequate when it comes to progressions like this, but isn't the overall pitch collection closer to Gm in the last part of the song than it is in the first part of the song?

If I can answer this - yes it is, but "major/minor" is not a very useful distinction in rock songs like this. (We shouldn't expect a rock song to be wholly one or the other.)

Generally (IMO), we can say a key is "major" if it uses a major chord as the tonic - regardless of how many notes or other chords it borrows from the parallel minor. (They will just "darken" the overall sound, without making it into a minor key.)

Likewise, a key is "minor" if it uses a minor tonic chord, regardless of borrowings from parallel major. (Minor keys use major V chords anyway, and you might even see major IV or minor ii chords. Remember the only difference between major and melodic minor is the 3rd.)

 

Rock really does blur the boundaries between major and minor - which is of course down to its blues heritage. (Of course, a lot of rock music is clearly identifiable as conventional major or minor key, but likewise a lot isn't.)

 

For me, the last part of Free Bird (G-Bb-C) is a bluesy G major tonality. Obviously more "minor" than the rest, but not fully minor to my ears. IOW, I still hear that Bb as a stranger to the basic key, a flattened 3rd, rather than the natural 3rd of the key at that point. But I guess others might hear it differently... (How would it sound if you played the chords as Gm-Bb-C? Making it dorian? That's the test.)

[EddieAteD]

I see what you mean JonR, you're seeing it as G borrowing from Gm, while I'm seeing it as Gm (Dorian) borrowing from G. In both cases, the result is a mishmash of major/minor/dominant blues/rock stuff in G. :-)

 

I do hear the Bb as stronger than the B over both the Bb and C chords, which is 3/4 of the progression, so obviously that's affecting how I look at it.

[bigboy78]

 

Sorry, I contributed to the Sweet Home debate... Back to Free Bird... @Gennation - it sounds like you're saying you view the key signature and the key as synonymous, but maybe I'm misreading you?

 

 

I think Gennation is making the point that the question the OP asked is sightly misguided.

 

What key is this in? is the usual question, when the answer being sought is Which scale should I use to construct my solo?

[meganutt7]

And to some of those that do too. See, this is where we are going to part company if we go any further down this road... Yes. IF you hear D as root... And also because they think it sounds like it's in G major. Me too! Let's hope we can stop this tangent right now, and get back to Free Bird... (The full case for both sides of the SHA dispute is argued at mind-boggling - and pointless and inconclusive - length here: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=407446 They tried to kill it there, but it wouldn't die. Don't let the virus spread here! Damn, I knew I shouldn't have brought it up.... )

 

Jon, the madness ends here.

 

 

We have the power to end it.

 

And so, it ends.

 

Let's just say that Sweet Home is comprised of chords that would take the notes C,D,E,F#,G,A,B in no particular order or level of importance... Not that they wouldn't take other notes as well, at other junctures.

 

[mcmurray]

Even simpler method - listen for it.

 

Listen for the most stable pitch (the tonic), and whether the sound is major or minor (interval between the tonic and third governs this). That's your key.

 

The tonic is the note that just sounds right at all times. If you had a bass player playing just that note throughout the whole section it would sound perfect.

 

As an example, listen to the start of 'Livewire' by ACDC. The bass note is the tonic, therefore, the key.

 

[YOUTUBE]n_2cnD2_ul0[/YOUTUBE]

[mcmurray]

Not trying to be argumentative, but the whole song is G major, never minor.

 

Incorrect. And you're telling the OP he needs basic lessons? No offence mate, but you could do with some yourself.

 

The outro solo is as minor as minor music comes.

[mcmurray]

 

For me, the last part of Free Bird (G-Bb-C) is a bluesy G major tonality. Obviously more "minor" than the rest, but not fully minor to my ears. IOW, I still hear that Bb as a stranger to the basic key, a flattened 3rd, rather than the natural 3rd of the key at that point. But I guess others might hear it differently... (How would it sound if you played the chords as Gm-Bb-C? Making it dorian? That's the test.)

 

 

Bb is a stranger to the G major key, and will sound strange if you try and force a major tonality on the solo. Bb fits into the G minor tonality perfectly. Since the third (which governs whether the key is major or minor) is a minor third (G-Bb), it's 100% minor.

[3shiftgtr]

For me, the last part of Free Bird (G-Bb-C) is a bluesy G major tonality. Obviously more "minor" than the rest, but not fully minor to my ears. IOW, I still hear that Bb as a stranger to the basic key, a flattened 3rd, rather than the natural 3rd of the key at that point. But I guess others might hear it differently... (How would it sound if you played the chords as Gm-Bb-C? Making it dorian? That's the test.)

 

Can't believe I'm in....

 

A "bluesey major tonality" is a loaded statement. It implies a pent minor with a flat 5 over some major chords. Or Mixolydian with some flat 5 passing tones....not hearing that here.

 

Are you talking about the whole song, or the out solo which is what the op was referring to. If you are referring to the whole song, then yes, G major.

 

But the song has two separate tonatlities: the beginning of the song and the out solo stuff. The out solo stuff has no minor over major feel. Nor does it imply some Mixolydian tonality.

 

As a soloist, you can do what you want. heckck, I'd be sticking me some Super Locrian in there cuz that's what I LIKE! But the riff and what that riff is analyzed as is about as minor as minor gets:

 

G power chord (G,D), a Bb power chord (Bb,F), a C power chord (C,G) and a walkup from E (E,F, F#). This pitch collection is G, Bb, C, D, E, F, and F#, which points to pent minor with an F# passing tone. Add a 2nd in there and you have jazz minor. Or leave the F# out and you have Dorian.

 

You just can't look at that outro riff as major in any way. You can put a maj 3rd over it melodically for that feel, but the riff is minor. The Skynyrd boys stick to the b3rd in their melodic choices solo wise as well.

 

Just don't see it JonR...and btw, much respect...I dig your posts.....

[JonR]

Guys, I agree. A Bb (note) is far more "in" than B natural on the G chord in the final section. I still might bend that Bb note on the G chord (just for hell of it ).

But I think if was going to sub major triads for those power chords, I would use a G major and not Gm. I deifnitely hear that Bb chord as a "dramatic" borrowing from the parallel minor, but that's mainly because of the preceding major tonality.

Not that it matters a great deal, and Gm sounds OK.

[stomias]

 

 

 

In the early '70's I got on stage with the great Jimmy Johnson. He was playing an A minor blues. I played an A7 chord. If looks could kill.................

[jeremy_green]

Guys, I agree. A Bb (note) is far more "in" than B natural on the G chord in the final section. I still might bend that Bb note on the G chord (just for hell of it ). But I think if was going to sub major triads for those power chords, I would use a G major and not Gm. I deifnitely hear that Bb chord as a "dramatic" borrowing from the parallel minor, but that's mainly because of the preceding major tonality. Not that it matters a great deal, and Gm sounds OK.

 

Just to add a hair of support (not that you need it Jon) Me too. I feel stronger towards G chord at that point... although I would solo using mostly Gm pentatonic. Like I said to me this kind of music always has a pretty ambiguous maj/min tonality.

[jeremy_green]

 

In the early '70's I got on stage with the great Jimmy Johnson. He was playing an A minor blues. I played an A7 chord. If looks could kill.................

 

 

Different strokes for different folks.

Must have been cool experience!

[gennation]

 

Sorry, I contributed to the Sweet Home debate... Back to Free Bird... @Gennation - it sounds like you're saying you view the key signature and the key as synonymous, but maybe I'm misreading you? Surely the key is defined by the root and the pitch collection, so if that pitch collection (or scale) changes, then the key has changed in some way? Major vs minor is obviously inadequate when it comes to progressions like this, but isn't the overall pitch collection closer to Gm in the last part of the song than it is in the first part of the song?

 

 

The simplest way to find your answer here is...

 

Try resolving the end progression to Gm then try it again to G major.

 

And

 

Try playing the G-Bb-C (I think the was the progression) as Gm-Bb-C.

 

I think your answer will be pretty clear.

 

You'll find there is nothing ambiguous about a Key...againg, regardless of the scale you use.

 

As I said in one of my last posts, don't confuse a Key with a Scale. A clear understanding of Key Signatures go a long way. (I'm not saying you don't have one, but just to look at Key signature and what it means to the music you're playing)

 

So in this case anything you play resolve back to G Major...not necessarily the G Major scale either. Because again the Key is not necessarily the scale.

[JonR]

Just to add a hair of support (not that you need it Jon) Me too. I feel stronger towards G chord at that point... although I would solo using mostly Gm pentatonic.

Me too. I just hear it as a blues-derived sequence, rather than a dorian/melodic minor one. I agree it's a fine distinction, matter of taste/preference, and not a right/wrong issue.

[mcmurray]

 

Like I said to me this kind of music always has a pretty ambiguous maj/min tonality.

 

 

I don't agree. Within that song there are major sections and minor sections. Within each section there is zero ambiguity.

 

btw I notice a lot of you guys talk about the 'root' of a scale. Where I come from there is no such thing, it's called the 'tonic'. 'root' is a term that applies to chords only.

 

The tonic is often confused with the root, which is the reference note of a chord, rather than that of the scale.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_(music)

 

Apologies for being a pedant.

[jeremy_green]

McMurray you will notice my quote said "With this kind of music" and not "with this song" you are absolutely correct about Freebird.

 

Good catch on the "tonic" thing - pedant or not it is good to maintain correctness even in banter.

 

Cheers