Members Still.ill Posted November 2, 2010 Members Posted November 2, 2010 the whole 60's type songwriting where songs would change keys like 3 times[YOUTUBE]frBuja42rqw[/YOUTUBE] starts off in C minor i think (figured this mostly by ear) switches to like F# for the chorus, by the end of the chorus it is somehow in Ab, but goes back to C minor for the second verse.......... the bridge is in Eb..... goes back into chorus but then for the outro it stays in Ab with a 3-6-2-5 progression... ****** amazingand they throw in weird chord choices in the bridge as well [YOUTUBE]6C0RmRGTePw[/YOUTUBE] and this one right here i still have no idea how it changes keys so effortleslly
Poparad Posted November 3, 2010 Posted November 3, 2010 Just keep on doing what you're doing: Figure out songs that change in ways that interest you, learn what it is they're doing, why it works, and how it sounds. After learning enough of these, when you write your own songs, you'll either hear the changes you want to make, or you might remember a progression-lick you like from another song and use that.
Members JonR Posted November 3, 2010 Members Posted November 3, 2010 I agree totally with Poparad, in that one should just seek these things out and make a note of how the effects are achieved - although I disagree you need to know "why" they work (in the sense of discovering some theoretical "explanation").Theory can help in revealing underlying logic sometimes, or pointing out things like substitutes - so you can often see that an apparenly strange chord is something fairly normal.But still, I'm not sure how that helps, other than in perhaps disposing of some confusion. (But there's no need to be confused by chord sequences; just accept them, and copy changes you like.) Anyway, I think it's worth laying out these progressions, if only to marvel at them. JUST A LITTLE LOVIN' (by Zeke Clements and Eddy Arnold) VERSE|Cm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Gm7 - - |Fm7 - - ||Cm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Gm7 - - |Am9 - - | - - - ||Abmaj7 - - |Gm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Gm7 - - ||Abmaj7 - - |Gm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Bb7sus4 - - | CHORUS|Gbmaj7 - - |Cbmaj7 - - |Emaj7 - - |Amaj7 - - ||Ebm7 - - |Ab7 - - |C#m7 - - |Bbm7 - - |Eb7sus4 - - | VERSE|Cm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Gm7 - - |Fm7 - - ||Cm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Gm7 - - |Am9 - - | - - - ||Abmaj7 - - |Gm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Gm7 - - ||Abmaj7 - - |Gm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Bb7sus4 - - | BRIDGE (INST)|Eb - - |Cm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Db - Bbm||Cm7 - - |F7 - - |Bb7sus4 - - |- - - | CHORUS|F#maj7 - - |Bmaj7 - - |Emaj7 - - |Amaj7 - - ||D#m7 - - |G#7 - - |C#m7 - - |Bbm7 - - |Eb7sus4 - - | CODA|Cm7 - - |Fm7 - - |Bbm7 - - |Eb7sus4 - - | The A section seems to be in C minor (aeolian) - but there's that very odd Am9 chord (B natural in the melody) held for 2 bars, leading to Abmaj7. Still C minor, or arguably Eb major. But that Am9 comes from nowhere! (In a sense it's just following the whole step rise from Fm7-Gm7. That's the logic, I guess. But it somehow leads with a different kind of logic to Abmaj7. The verse ends with a ii-V in Ebmajor - but course doesn't go there. What's happening in the B section (chorus) is - IMO - an illustration of a rule I read in a jazz arranging book years ago: "A chord may go to any other chord of the same type." IOW, key rules can go hang! These chords are all maj7s, so that makes it OK. (I mean, that's if you care a damn about theoretical permission, and of course you don't have to.)OK, it's a cycle of 5ths/4ths too, but it while it starts with a I-IV in F#/Gb, it goes straight to a I-IV in E (whole step down).(The maj7 idea kind of explains the move from Am9 to Abmaj7, if you see Am9 as Cmaj7/A.)Then a ii-V in C#/Db, leading to a m7 version of the expected tonic, so it seems like it's about to do the same trick of repeating the pair of chords a step down (ii-V in B). But the C#m7 is followed instead by a ii-V in Ab major. Which of course doesn't lead to Ab major, but back to the verse. (There's a logic there, in that Cm7 is a sub for Ab.) Then you get an instrumental bridge with yet another sequence - which is more or less in Eb major (er apart from the Db/Bbm and F7) - ending with the verse cadence that leads to the chorus again. And lastly the Coda - iii-vi-ii-V in Ab major as you say.
Members JonR Posted November 3, 2010 Members Posted November 3, 2010 LIFE ON MARS VERSE |F - - - |Am/E - - - |Cm6/Eb - - - |D7 - - - | |Gm - - - |Gm - - - |C7 - - - | - - - - | |F - - - |Am/E - - - |Cm6/Eb |D7 - - - | |Gm - - - |Gm - - - |C7 - - - | - - - - | PRE-CHORUS |Eb6 - - - |C7+/E - - - |Fm - - - |Gbmaj7 - - - | |Db - - - |F7+/A - - - |Bbm - - - |Gb/Cb - - - | CHORUS |Bb - - - |Eb - - - |Gm7 - - - |D7alt/F# - - - | |F - - - |Fm - - - |Cm - - - |Ebm7- - - | |Bb - - - |Eb - - - |Gm7 - - - |D7alt/F# - - - | |F - - - |Fm - - - |Cm - - - |Ebm7 - - - | |Gm - - - |D+/F# - - - |Gm/F - - - |Gm/E - - -| SOLO |F7 - - - |F#dim7 - - - |Gm - - - |E7b9/D - - - | |Am7 - - - |Bb(add9) - - - |Bbm - - - |(F) The whole thing repeats, leading (from the Gm/E) to a solo with a different sequence for the coda: CODA |F - - - |F#dim7 - - - |Gm - - - |Bb/F - - - | |Bb/F - - - | - - - - |Eb- - - |Ebm6 - - - |Bb. The logic holding most of this together is chromatic descending (and ascending) bass lines, combined with minor key cadences. So the verse opens with an F descending to D and resolving to Gm. (The Am and Cm6 are really only what happens to F when you put those bass notes under it; and you can "explain" the Cm6 as a iv or ii in G minor, to go with the V, D7.) The Gm itself becomes a ii (Bb/F = Gm7) leading to V of F and back. Then the pre=chorus ("film is a saddening bore") hits that crunchy augmented chord, which simply resolves conventionally to Fm. But - now we have a rising chromatic line (Eb-E-F-Gb) pumping up the tenson - the Fm turns out to be iii of Db major, which it gets to via the IV (Gbmaj7). Then it progresses a 4th up: F7+ to Bbm to Cbmaj7. (The latter being basically a Gb triad over a Cb bass.) That finally gives way (by what you might say is a phrygian cadence, bII-I) to the nearest thing to a home key - Bb major - and the chorus is a slightly more orthodox set of chords. The D7alt is V of the preceding Gm, and leads (in an echo of bars 3-4 of the verse) down via its F# to F. (In fact, the D7alt, along with a Bb and an Eb in the vocal, kind of resembles Cm9b5, an Eb melodic minor chord; that forms a reasonably natural jazz cadence to F major. But pretty unusual in rock!) A minor iv chord leads back to the Bb major. The chorus ends with another chromatic bass descent: essentially a Gm chord with a G-F#-F-E bass, resolving to F for the guitar solo. The solo sequence uses similar minor key cadences, on top of a bass line rising back up: vii-i into Gm, then V-i into A minor. (The arrangement, interestingly, avoids the tempting G# bass on the E7, which would have made a complete chromatic line through the solo from F up to Bb.) The Coda builds up to a thundering dominant pedal and ties it up with a minor plagal cadence. Giving this kind of effect... (I'd thought this arrangement was Tony Visconti, but apparently it was by Mick Ronson. Nice one Ronno!) In brief, despite some of the twisted moves and dense harmonies in this song, I think there's stranger changes in the Dusty Springfield song (written by Zeke Clements and Eddy Arnold, btw).
Members JonR Posted November 3, 2010 Members Posted November 3, 2010 Here's another song with one of my favourite key/chord changes: OK, try to ignore the painfully 80s video... Just listen for that change right on 1:00. You don't hear that one very often. Bbm7 to C major - gorgeous. You get another nice one at 1:40, tho that's only a Bb6 to Bbm7/Eb. BTW, you get the exact same Am7-Abmaj7 change in this song as in Just A Little Lovin'! Here it sounds a bit more normal, as it's in the context of C major: C - Am7 - Abmaj7 - Bb6 - © (I-v-bVI-bVII, with the Ab and Bb borrowed from C minor)
Members jonPhillips Posted November 3, 2010 Members Posted November 3, 2010 (I'd thought this arrangement was Tony Visconti, but apparently it was by Mick Ronson. Nice one Ronno!) +1 to that. Ronson was a criminally underrated arranger of songs, as well as a great guitarist
Members Tubefox Posted November 5, 2010 Members Posted November 5, 2010 Other people have covered it far better than I could hope, but I will throw in this, it's simple and it's a good rule of thumb: Key change up the circle of fifths - more tensionDown - release tension
Members jonfinn Posted November 13, 2010 Members Posted November 13, 2010 I don't know how the "greats" do it. One thing I do is to choose the most "wrong" chord I can think of, then work my way (slowly) back the original key. [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WRvD0bO9A[/YOUTUBE] Most of the tune is in D. But for a moment, it moves to Gb, then back to D (starting w/ the Bbm7 chord). Abstract: when writing, don't analyze. Just write. (forgot how to embed the youtube code... will work on it...)
Members themrwhite Posted November 13, 2010 Members Posted November 13, 2010 Here is a quick reference to all of the keys and basic chord forms associated with them. I hope it helps. http://greenwichguitars.com/chord_and_key_reference.htm
Members PGAPIT Posted November 14, 2010 Members Posted November 14, 2010 I tend to play mostly hard rock and metal; which allows for a great deal of chromaticism (if the band is so inclined). But I usually will start from standard chord relationships and standard theory (both classical and popular/jazz), to springboard the writing. I find that I will often attempt to take two riffs that don't belong with each other, and try to modulate between them. Of course this is greatly accelerated by using common chord relationships, borrowed chords, secondary dominant and secondary diminished functions, etc... I think that it must sound good to both the player(s) and the listener--so I think that my ear is the final judge--but it sure helps to know a little bit about where your chords are coming from! Theory makes it so much easier to map what I am playing to my ears.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.