OT: Why was the Free Lessons thread deleted and the poster banned?

[Eddie]

Let me say that I report pretty much every spammer I encounter, unless they've been reported first by someone else. This has led to very pleasant interactions with moderators such as Craig Anderton and Rimmer. I hate spam! We all hate spam.

 

So I was a bit surprised when I could not find this thread. As I mentioned in my reply to the people accusing user "TheSound" of being a spambot or not posting any lessons, that was not the case.

 

So what was the content of those "Free Lessons"?

A magazine with interviews to various musicians (e.g., Paul Gilbert), tips on recording, recommended books (many of which are also recommended here), practice tips, reviews, lessons, and more.

 

I was pleasantly surprised to see a lesson with Rowan Robertson about playing through chord changes and choosing target notes, just like the discussion on another recent thread here. And I was always impressed by an 18-year old playing with Dio!

 

Other lessons included string skipping, intervallic soloing, and more. The first volume only included a technique section by Jason Macedo, who I think is one of the magazine's creators. It seems to focus a bit on Shawn Lane, with lessons by Shawn as well as one of his former students. I just quickly browsed it and will read it later.

 

I am not affiliated with The Sound Guitar Magazine. Their website looks like a work in progress and they have room for improvement, but why ban them and delete the thread?

[jeremy_green]

I suspect it is tied to the fact that they make revenue off of advertising. Sending people to them through this site represents a conflict of interest to HC's advertisers. Likely anyone involved in the creation of such businesses knows quite well what they are doing. Kind of hard to cry "why me" in that situation - which I suspect was the cause for the banning.

 

I have no position on whether i actually agree with this or not, just stating what i believe to be the reason.

[gennation]

Competition in a capitalist cyberworld?

[1001gear]

Not in your own belly.

[Eddie]

Thanks Jeremy. Sounds somewhat reasonable but I get the feeling he was just arbitrarily banned after being accused (without any valid basis) of being a spammer.
If a forum member would have made that post, I'm sure there would have been no banning. Plenty of posts with links to other sites and online magazines would represent also a similar conflict of interest, yet I don't recall any banning like this one.
Of course, full disclosure would have helped and in some forums is the appropriate procedure (i.e., saying "this is my new website and magazine and includes lessons), but it was pretty obvious that it was his website.

Anyway, the Full Thread for those who missed it.

Their website looks like a work in progress and has 3 adds.
The poster had 4 previous posts, without posting any links or anything that would be considered spam.
Both magazine issues have lessons. Unfortunately the first issue is not even on their poorly designed website, so I found it via Google. So if anyone wants "lots of free lessons," they're actually quite good

[jeremy_green]

Who really knows Eddie, ... guess you could PM Jed or Pops. It did seem quite abrupt, but I have utmost faith in Jed & Pops. They are awesome moderators who have always been beyond tolerant. Things can get sticky when anything is a money making site where advertisers are concerned. Ask any salesman!!

[Eddie]

Who really knows Eddie, ... guess you could PM Jed or Pops. It did seem quite abrupt, but I have utmost faith in Jed & Pops. They are awesome moderators who have always been beyond tolerant. Things can get sticky when anything is a money making site where advertisers are concerned. Ask any salesman!!

I totally agree with you. Great moderators indeed. That's why it very surprised.

[GreenAsJade]

I hadn't appreciated two things from the OP's orignal post

1) The lessons are in the magazine (it seemed to me he was pointing us
to a web page that was going to have lessons, and when I arrived
the web page appeared to have broken links to free lessons)

2) The Magazine is downloadable for free.

That makes it less spammy than I thought. It's still the kind of thing that might not be welcome on HC though...

40M download too!

GaJ

(IBTL )

[Eddie]

The first issue (with video) is 367 MB

And the PDF is an image instead of text, which makes searching impossible. I may convert them with my OCR just to make them searchable. There's room for improvement, but I like some of what I've read so far.

[Jed]

I am not affiliated with The Sound Guitar Magazine. Their website looks like a work in progress and they have room for improvement, but why ban them and delete the thread?

 

The offending post was waaaaaaay past acceptable spam. The purpose of the post was not to share music knowledge (as is the charter here at LL) but rather to generate traffic for a commercial start-up. Upon checking back over that thread, I'm pretty sure it was me who moved the post (nothing gets deleted, offending posts just get moved to non-public view status).

 

Just because a commercial entity offers some free lessons doesn't mean that posts promoting that entity are not spam. That post made no pretense of being anything other than spam - so the post was moved and the ultra-low post count poster (who's screen name is the same as the company's name) was banned. If I saw that post today for the first time, even after your comments on this thread - I would react exactly the same way.

 

There is no simple formula for determining what threads are considered spam but in general terms some leeway is afforded posters who have been contributors to the community for some period of time. I'm happy to answer any specific questions about the policies but I'm afraid I don't have the time to write on and on about the complexities of concepts like minor versus major spam.

 

cheers,

 

Jed

 

PS It might be informative to re-read the TOS @ http://acapella.harmony-central.com/faq.php

[Eddie]

Thanks for the explanation Jed. Having reported spammers for a decade or so via Spamcop, direct reports to ISPs, Web of Trust, Site Advisor, etc., and here to the moderators, I respectfully disagree with your perception, though, but at the end of the day it's not my decision and I'm not a moderator.

Many of these "signature spammers" look more like real spammers to me:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=459652&page=29

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2164481&page=6

Some have been banned, many have not. They register, post a handful of times, and leave their signature spam links for real estate, wedding cakes, telephones, travel, shoes, etc.

Why wouldn't I consider the poster in question a spammer:
1.- He did not hide his identity or affiliation with the magazine.
2.- His previous posts were on topic. When he was accused of being a spambot I checked, since it's certainly a possibility and newer spambots often post the same thing at various forums or post the same text as other posters. For example, "Thanks for this useful information. I'm a new one in this forum. I must appreciate the tools provided by you. Please keep updating me in this regard" is one of the frequently used texts.
3.- He posted the link for the first time at The Lesson Loft, offering lessons. Again on-topic

Was he trying to get people to his website? Absolutely.
Does that violate the TOC? I guess that technically it does. I really don't think it was ill intended, and if anyone else would have posted the exact same link it would probably be considered a useful resource, unlike the shoes, telephones, or wedding cakes links.
If he had 500 posts instead of 5 and the link was in his signature perhaps it would also be more accepted, as is the case with plenty of HC forum members, even though technically they may be violating the TOS.

Anyway, I found the magazine and the lessons useful and will continue to download it, like I do with Premiere Guitar and other online magazines. Thanks again for your clarification, and I guess we'll agree to disagree. I respect your perspective as a moderator which is different from mine as a user.

[Eddie]

Just for the record, since it's impossible to reply to the closed spam thread, I would also consider that one spam.

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2711169-SPAM*-Beginning-Guitar-Lessons-ebook-*SPAM

[Jeff1979]

No offence but you seem quite concerned over a post by someone you dont know??

[Eddie]

 

No offence but you seem quite concerned over a post by someone you dont know??

 

 

It's not his post I was concerned about, but rather the deletion and banning since those were IMHO surprising and unjustified. Certainly not what I expected here at HC. Simple as that.

[jeremy_green]

Not to sound like a kiss ass, just how I feel; If Jed thinks it's SPAM I back his decision 100%. It's a borderline call but someone has to make it and he is certainly qualified.

 

Not sure your history here Eddie (no slight intended) but in my history here, he has made good decisions and is an intelligent, contentious moderator AND contributor. My only beef with Jed (and he knows it) is he doesn't contribute enough. Just too much knowledge there to have wasting on the sidelines. : )

 

I do understand you asking the question certainly.

[Jed]

Just to jump in for a moment . .

I'm not offended by Eddie questioning of the thread deletion. He's obviously been around HC for some time and deserves a honest and rational response to his very civil question. It's good for the forum members to question things from time to time - after all, Poparad and I are here to serve the forum. This is not my kingdom, I'm just a civil servant. I'm OK knowing that my moderator actions won't please everyone. And to Eddies point, we at the LL tend to run to slightly higher standards relative to spam and acceptable behavior.

I'm not surprised that Eddie found the deletion a bit heavy-handed. And I'm not offended that he's voiced his opinion. Personally I don't spend much time at other HC forums - too busy with life, but we do often run into the fact that LL runs a "tighter ship" than some other forums. So these kinds of things come up every now and then, especially with long-term members from other HC forums. The discussion is healthy. Some members of LL may feel compelled to defend the "moderators" of their forum. That's OK too, it's all good. I've got big shoulders and Eddies comments have been very civil and well considered.

cheers to all - remember, this too will pass . .

To Jeremy,
I will post more soon. But from my perspective, it's a gas watching you guys drive the discussions and growth. Moderators have a special duty to avoid defining the forum. We're more like road maintenance workers or janitors mostly (at least I am -Poparad, on the other hand is the real deal musically). That doesn't mean we can't participate - but as you know we walk a fine line between participating and directing.

cheers,

[Eddie]

@Jeremy,

As you said, it was just a question. I too respect Jed's decision, My history with moderators is that I've never had a problem with any moderator. Once I did post twice in a spam thread and Phil pointed out that it was a no-no and pointed me to the rules of the spam thread. No biggie, and I did apologize

@Jed,

Thanks again for your comments and your understanding. My question was not intended as an aggression or anything of the sort. It's nice to have a civil conversation and I'm glad you saw it that way and thankful that you took the time to comment.

[Jed]

@Jed, Thanks again for your comments and your understanding. My question was not intended as an aggression or anything of the sort. It's nice to have a civil conversation and I'm glad you saw it that way and thankful that you took the time to comment.

 

Eddie,

No worries. We're big on responding to civility with civility.

 

Out to the group,

So here's the next example for your consideration. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2711914-Introduction

 

The poster joined today - and has made two posts. I cannot locate his other post because search is currently disabled. Now at least this guy was smart enough to put the spam in his signature. Bottom line, it's commercial so by definition it's spam. I mean come on, . . He has to mention his company three times in one two sentence post (his name, the company name, the signature spam to a pay site)? Does anyone really think this guy is here to learn? or just here to sell? Remember he says

My name is Nick and I help with marketing for an online acoustic guitar lesson company called RhythmStrummer.com that is focused on guitar lessons for beginners

 

I look forward to your comments. Meanwhile I'm locking that thread and considering a perma-ban.

 

cheers,

 

I'm ready to talk to the Admin's about how we can set new users up for automatic moderation until they meet some non-spam post count.

 

cheers,

 

pS FWIW, I don't normally worry too much about spam. Most of the time I only hear about a spam thread after multiple people have already complained about an offending post / poster. Even the thread that was the focus of Eddies first question was reported by multiple people before any actions were taken. It's not like were sitting around waiting to pounce on spammers, but when we smell the stench . . the garbage has to go out!

 

Correction: I checked the ban information. This particular Spam delete and ban was done by Poparad. The poster received a lenient 30-day temp ban (note that I would have probably gone directly to a perma-ban).

[Anderton]

I can't comment on this specific instance, but overall, HC's forums are not meant to be used for commercial purposes. Sure, we all give slack to long-time contributors who have a CD out or are playing someplace or whatever. But when someone comes here and appears to be doing so only to take advantage of the available eyeballs (e.g., low post count, no interaction on other forums, no follow-up to posts, etc.), that's not looked upon kindly.

 

Part of this is indeed because advertisers who "play by the rules" and pay in order to get a commercial message across to the HC community are what keep the lights on, and they shouldn't have to be undermined by people who take advantage of commercial opportunities without paying. But a more important reason is that once you allow this kind of thing, you can expect a deluge of people and companies turning these forums from interactions with a community to "broadcasting" of commercial messages. Just because it's commercial doesn't mean it has no merit - just that it's commercial.

 

As Jed points out, these kinds of decisions involve judgment calls, as does banning people and other day-to-day stuff. I really trust the opinions and judgments of the moderators here - they know their forums, they know their audience, and they also have that "Spidey moderator sense" of when someone is trying to contribute to the community versus trying to take advantage of it.

 

And I also really appreciate Eddie, who has been really on top of alerting me to obvious spam...it's people like him who make my job easier, and keep the forums free from commercial flooding.

 

Speaking of which, if anyone wants to buy Nikes, golf clubs, see pictures of Jessica Alba naked in the shower, or wants to buy an unlocked iPhone while transferring DVDs to iPod/WAV/Zen/MP4, let me know

[Espresso]

Speaking of which, if anyone wants to buy Nikes, golf clubs, see pictures of Jessica Alba naked in the shower , or wants to buy an unlocked iPhone while transferring DVDs to iPod/WAV/Zen/MP4, let me know

PM sent:thu:

[Steadfastly]

All the explanations sound very reasonable to me. Keep up the great work moderators:thu:!