Members Cary Chilton Posted December 15, 2010 Members Posted December 15, 2010 Hey, I am new here! Nice to be here! I never realized that the Harmony Central forums were so big! I am usually at TGP. Anyway I have a question, though my music theory is decent, I am stuck! I had been try to make sense in the framework of some theory for the song GOT ME WRONG by Alice in Chains.It is ALL Major Chords: Tuned Eb the fret postion chords are Abmaj /--- Emaj / ---- F#maj /----later in the chorus, song changes key with the chords Emaj /---- F#maj / ----- Amaj /---- No rules in song writing especially in suiting the melody, I know, but I'd like to sort it out. The Verse chords, sound like modal progression to me Ab Phrygian, albeit all major chords. The Verse's prog is : 1 | 6 | 7 Chorus, feels like a key modulation of Amaj 5 | 6 | 1 progession but it could also be a in Phrygian's prog 6 | 7 | 2 BUT that is a strange progression and the chorus really FEELS major, so I'd be inclined to say it was a key modulation. I avoid using the key of Emajor because the tonality is A not E, but E seems easier to work out 3 1 2 progression and then a 1 2 4 progression, but I think that might not be the right way to explain the song. Here's the link of the song and I am curious on your thoughts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9JqXSRhew BTW should the use all major TRIAD chords properly referred to as key modulations or pivotal chords ? THanks! Cary
Members polishpaul Posted December 15, 2010 Members Posted December 15, 2010 Welcome, Cary! They'll be along presently, those here who know. At least I understand the questions .
Members espec10001 Posted December 15, 2010 Members Posted December 15, 2010 The timing of the song is 4/4 and the key is Eb major. For about 24 measures, the progression goes like this: Gm-Eb-Fm-Gm. Then, Ab-Bb-Gm-Fm-Gm-Eb-Fm-Gm-Eb-Fm x 2 Then back to Gm-Eb-Fm-Gm for a while Then: Eb-Fm-Ab for a while. Obviously my chord changes aren't accurate, but if you use your ear you should be able to hear the structure and of the song with these chords.
Members JonR Posted December 15, 2010 Members Posted December 15, 2010 Hey, I am new here! Nice to be here! I never realized that the Harmony Central forums were so big! I am usually at TGP. Anyway I have a question, though my music theory is decent, I am stuck!I had been try to make sense in the framework of some theory for the song GOT ME WRONG by Alice in Chains.It is ALL Major Chords: Tuned Eb the fret postion chords are Abmaj /--- Emaj / ---- F#maj /----later in the chorus, song changes key with the chords Emaj /---- F#maj / ----- Amaj /----No rules in song writing especially in suiting the melody, I know, but I'd like to sort it out.The Verse chords, sound like modal progression to me Ab Phrygian, albeit all major chords. The Verse's prog is : 1 | 6 | 7 Chorus, feels like a key modulation of Amaj 5 | 6 | 1 progession but it could also be a in Phrygian's prog 6 | 7 | 2 BUT that is a strange progression and the chorus really FEELS major, so I'd be inclined to say it was a key modulation.I avoid using the key of Emajor because the tonality is A not E, but E seems easier to work out 3 1 2 progression and then a 1 2 4 progression, but I think that might not be the right way to explain the song.Here's the link of the song and I am curious on your thoughts.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9JqXSRhewBTW should the use all major TRIAD chords properly referred to as key modulations or pivotal chords ?THanks!CaryHere's what I get. I'll give the chords all as if in standard EADGBE, as you have. I think yours are all correct, btw, although it's slightly easier to use G# instead of Ab to make the best enharmonic sense of it. INTRO|G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# | VERSE|G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# ||G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# | CHORUS|D - F - |C# - A - |G# - E F# |G# - E F# ||D - F - |C# - A - | REPEAT INTRO/VERSE/CHORUS BRIDGE|E - F# - |A - - - |E - F# - |A - - - ||E - F# - |A - - - |E - F# - |A - - - ||F# - - - |A - - - |A | This is not a sequence easy to analyse in conventional terms. Mainly because, of course, it's all major chords, from a few different keys. To start with, we seem to be in the key of G# major (aka Ab major), but the other chords make it much more like G# minor. (We could call it G# minor, if the tonic chord wasn't so clearly major - although there is a b7 in the vocal.) It's common practice in rock, of course, to borrow chords from the parallel minor, but they're going a stage further here. It begins conventionally enough, with a very common rock sequence, using the bVI and bVII chords to resolve to a major tonic. If you think G# minor, then that's where the E and F# come from. (It's also called "modal interchange".) Things go weird in the chorus, however: the C# makes sense with G#, but D and F certainly don't. The A can be seen as a phrygian cadence back to G# - and the C#-A-G# trio suggest a key of C# (the A coming from C# minor). But otherwise we need some tortuous kind of logic to explain D and F. Of course, they can be seen as just a chromatic half-step up from C# and E, which belong more in context.There's certainly no key centre in this section; it's not exactly atonal, but it's non-tonal. One structural aspect is the use of major 3rd descents: F#-D (going into the chorus), then F-C# and C#-A; which ties in with the G#-E descent in the verse. The bridge plays the neat little trick of taking the E-F# of the verse but following them with A instead of G# - and then holding the A a little longer so it feels almost like the intended key centre for this section. EDIT: word in red corrected.
Members espec10001 Posted December 16, 2010 Members Posted December 16, 2010 Here's what I get. I'll give the chords all as if in standard EADGBE, as you have. I think yours are all correct, btw, although it's slightly easier to use G# instead of Ab to make the best enharmonic sense of it.INTRO|G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |VERSE|G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# ||G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |G# - E F# |CHORUS|D - F - |C# - A - |G# - E F# |G# - E F# ||D - F - |C# - A - |REPEAT INTRO/VERSE/CHORUSBRIDGE|E - F# - |A - - - |E - F# - |A - - - ||E - F# - |A - - - |E - F# - |A - - - ||F# - - - |A - - - |A |This is not a sequence easy to analyse in conventional terms. Mainly because, of course, it's all major chords, from a few different keys. To start with, we seem to be in the key of G# major (aka Ab major), but the other chords make it much more like G# minor. (We could call it G# minor, if the tonic chord wasn't so clearly major - although there is a b7 in the vocal.) It's common practice in rock, of course, to borrow chords from the parallel minor, but they're going a stage further here.It begins conventionally enough, with a very common rock sequence, using the bVI and bVII chords to resolve to a major tonic. If you think G# minor, then that's where the E and F# come from. (It's also called "modal interchange".)Things go weird in the chorus, however: the C# makes sense with G#, but D and F certainly don't. The A can be seen as a phrygian cadence back to G# - and the C#-A-G# trio suggest a key of C# (the A coming from C# minor). But otherwise we need some tortuous kind of logic to explain D and F. Of course, they can be seen as just a chromatic half-step up from C# and E, which belong more in context.There's certainly no key centre in this section; it's not exactly atonal, but it's non-tonal.One structural aspect is the use of major 3rd descents: F#-D (going into the bridge), then F-C# and C#-A; which ties in with the G#-E descent in the verse.The bridge plays the neat little trick of taking the E-F# of the verse but following them with A instead of G# - and then holding the A a little longer so it feels almost like the intended key centre for this section. I stand corrected. A very valuable lesson indeed!
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 17, 2010 Author Members Posted December 17, 2010 : word in red corrected. Thanks for the Reply Jon, I pm'd you, but I didn't hear back, so I put the question on the forum. Yes, this song's general vibe is a wandering sound due to the lack of tonal center at times. I can bet Jerry Cantrell didn't have the foggiest idea about the theory he has into with this song. Cantrell, being a huge AC/DC fan would have used major chords simply because there is a lot of major triad in AD/DC songs -especially by Malcom and because Angus doesn't always play what his brother's playin, the tonal center is never an issue. However with one guitar, as in AIC's Got Me Wrong it brings complexity. So Jon, do you think this song changes keys or is it all in Ab Phrygian? What do you progression of the verse and chorus are (in scale degrees as I had attempt in the op )
Members JonR Posted December 17, 2010 Members Posted December 17, 2010 Thanks for the Reply Jon, I pm'd you, but I didn't hear back, so I put the question on the forum. Yes, this song's general vibe is a wandering sound due to the lack of tonal center at times. I can bet Jerry Cantrell didn't have the foggiest idea about the theory he has into with this song. Cantrell, being a huge AC/DC fan would have used major chords simply because there is a lot of major triad in AD/DC songs -especially by Malcom and because Angus doesn't always play what his brother's playin, the tonal center is never an issue. However with one guitar, as in AIC's Got Me Wrong it brings complexity. So Jon, do you think this song changes keys or is it all in Ab Phrygian? What do you progression of the verse and chorus are (in scale degrees as I had attempt in the op ) Sorry I missed the PM, I'm not used to the site's new layout yet! It's not in "Ab phrygian", that's probably the one thing I'd be most certain about. That implies a minor tonic chord at the very least, and you don't get that here. I'd say it's mostly "in Ab" or G# if you prefer - at least in the verse. In rock, a key only really means the tonic chord, which is going to be major or minor. A major tonic doesn't prevent all kinds of other borrowed chords appearing. Sometimes a set of chords let's you identify it as a mode of some kind, but not here. I really don't know what key the chorus is in (the bit that starts on D) - I'd say it was in no key, which is perfectly possible. The bridge (E-F#-A) is also indeterminate - do you hear a key centre there yourself? I'm tempted by A, but only because of the time spent on A. It would be more like E otherwise. Again, I see little purpose in identifying a key for this section. I mean it does "change key" in the sense that it moves out of Ab/G# - but it doesn't move into anything else! It's interesting, because the chords (I presume) aren't random, there is some aural logic in their minds connecting them; they "sound right", at least to AIC - and I can kind of see the point. I just can't quite discern what the logic is (other than those major 3rd moves - but then there are also root moves of m2, M2 and m2). From a different perspective you could think of it as developing from (or relating to) an E centre. G# major belongs in E as V/vi (secondary dominant of C#m). F# can be V/V or just a borrowed major II (only ever used as a passing chord anyway). D can be the bVII, common rock chord. C# is arguably a delayed major tonic of the G# (hey, maybe the chorus is in C#?). F - er - a phrygian bII of E....? The only problem with this game is that E doesn't sound like the key (not to me anyhow). You have to be able to hear a key centre, in order to identify it.
Members 1001gear Posted December 17, 2010 Members Posted December 17, 2010 If my brain worked, I'd analyze the song polytonally. Good song ...
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 17, 2010 Author Members Posted December 17, 2010 Sorry I missed the PM, I'm not used to the site's new layout yet! It's not in "Ab phrygian", that's probably the one thing I'd be most certain about. That implies a minor tonic chord at the very least, and you don't get that here. I'd say it's mostly "in Ab" or G# if you prefer - at least in the verse. In rock, a key only really means the tonic chord, which is going to be major or minor. A major tonic doesn't prevent all kinds of other borrowed chords appearing. Sometimes a set of chords let's you identify it as a mode of some kind, but not here. I really don't know what key the chorus is in (the bit that starts on D) - I'd say it was in no key, which is perfectly possible. The bridge (E-F#-A) is also indeterminate - do you hear a key centre there yourself? I'm tempted by A, but only because of the time spent on A. It would be more like E otherwise. Again, I see little purpose in identifying a key for this section. I mean it does "change key" in the sense that it moves out of Ab/G# - but it doesn't move into anything else! It's interesting, because the chords (I presume) aren't random, there is some aural logic in their minds connecting them; they "sound right", at least to AIC - and I can kind of see the point. I just can't quite discern what the logic is (other than those major 3rd moves - but then there are also root moves of m2, M2 and m2). From a different perspective you could think of it as developing from (or relating to) an E centre. G# major belongs in E as V/vi (secondary dominant of C#m). F# can be V/V or just a borrowed major II (only ever used as a passing chord anyway). D can be the bVII, common rock chord. C# is arguably a delayed major tonic of the G# (hey, maybe the chorus is in C#? ). F - er - a phrygian bII of E....? The only problem with this game is that E doesn't sound like the key (not to me anyhow). You have to be able to hear a key centre, in order to identify it. So for the song to use a modal progression, G# Phrygian, the tonic definitely needs to be G#m? Too bad, otherwise the chords nearly were all contained albeit borrowed from other keys... Funny when you play this song using some minor chords that make sense, the melody falls apart entirely. Is there any rules for borrowing from other keys?
Members 1001gear Posted December 17, 2010 Members Posted December 17, 2010 Short answer - (I only have short answers) - no. That revealed, you still have all the traditional concepts trying to impose their relationships; neighboring chords, passing chords, secondary dominants, sub dominants, substitutions ad infinitum; essentially non harmonic harmony, and still tonal. The rules are wherever you set them.
Members JonR Posted December 17, 2010 Members Posted December 17, 2010 Is there any rules for borrowing from other keys?Yes - but they result in almost total freedom to use any chord! (see chart below) It's just a matter of how you want to explain them. The most common sources are parallel modes.The conventional minor key already - traditionally - borrows its V chord from the major key. That's to make the final cadence stronger.Rock kind of operates an opposite principle: they use major keys, but borrow chords from the minor to make the cadence weaker. That's not the only reason, but I think we all feel that a song in, say, E major that ends with a B7-E change is not as cool as one which ends with A-E or D-E. A-E is the classical "plagal cadence", which rock much prefers to the "perfect" or "authentic" cadence (V-I). D-E is a mixolydian cadence - even more to rock tastes. If we can combine the two in D-A-E: even better, a double plagal cadence! (or mixolydian VII-IV-I).The other thing - maybe the main one - borrowed chords do is darken the major key, which is otherwise too damn happy or bright. In E major, the chords D, G and C all contribute a nice weight and darkness to the E major key - and all come from E minor. You could go one stage darker and borrow F from E phrygian. (But as I say, that doesn't make the E major key into phrygian mode.)You might well say, why not just play in minor keys to start with? It must be because the tonic major chord is such a strong powerful sound. Minor keys are cool too, for those more introspective moments, but mainly we want that sturdy major tonic. But unless we're writing a ballad or a straightahead pop song, we don't want all the other "normal" major key chords that go with it - or at least if we do, we want them coloured with minor key borrowings.The other cool chord to borrow from the parallel minor is the iv chord: adding Am to key of E major adds an cool element of mystery or spookiness- not as heavy as the borrowed major chords, which can often seem crude. Going the other way - brightening the major key by converting some of its minors into majors - does happen, and is usually regarded not as borrowing but as "secondary dominants". Eg, the only brighter mode than Ionian is Lydian, from which we could borrow a major II chord: F# in key of E. But that chord is normally used as V/V, to resolve to B or B7 in a stronger, more urgent way than F#m does. You hear that in country and country rock a lot (eg Honky Tonk Women uses an A in key of G to move to the D) - it has a kind of "yee-ha" kick to it.If the major II chord doesn't go straight to the V, you can still sometimes argue it's a secondary dominant. Eg, if a sequence went E-F#-A-B, you could see the B as just being delayed by one chord.Other secondary dominants in E major are:G# = V of C#mD# = V of G#mC# = V of F#mE7 = V of A(You need to add the b7 to E to reveal it as a secondary dominant; otherwise it's just the tonic of course. The others can have a b7 added, but don't need it.) More sophisticated borrowings might be other chords from parallel phrygian or even locrian modes. Eg, if you ever see a Bb major chord in key or E, or a Gm, you could explain them as being borrowed from the parallel locrian mode. Dm, meanwhile, could come from E phrygian or E locrian. But then if the Bb is found between A and B - or the Gm is just between G#m and F#m - there's no need for such fancy explanations. They're just chromatic passing chords. You also need to be aware that a bunch of strange chords might simply represent a modulation. "Modulation" (key change) - perhaps confusingly - is quite different from "modal interchange" (borrowing). Here's a chart of all* the chords (triads only) which might be found in the key of E major, and what they might be doing there. The diatonic ones are in blue. Note that some of these would be rare. "SD" means secondary dominants. and these would be more common in jazz progressions than in rock. Likewise the borrowings from other modes are very rare in jazz, but common in rock. Notice there are major and minor versions of every chord there is, except for the following: Em - that would make the whole key minor!Fm - arguably possible as coming from E superlocrian or ultralocrian (modes of F harmonic and melodic minor)Bbm - dittoCm - contains Eb, so has no affinity with any scale containing E. * When I say "all", there are bound to be some possibilities omitted. Such as borrowed dim chords, or dim chords as secondary vii chords. But these would probably only occur in jazz tunes.I'm also not counting blues, where you get E7 as tonic and A7 as subdominant (not as secondary dominants). Lastly, this is major keys only! Minor keys have different rules, and the convention of 3 minor scales (natural, harmonic, melodic) already allows some chord variety as standard. PS: You will see that the above chart will enable you to explain EVERY chord in "Got Me Wrong" in relation to a G# key centre - even the D and F. But remember that those might not be the best explanations. Not all music is tonal (has an overall key centre), so sometimes trying to identify a key is a wild goose chase. It's very rare that rock is completely atonal, but it is "post-tonal" - meaning it can take or leave the rules of tonality. "Key" has to be something you can hear. If you can't hear a key centre, there probably isn't one, so there's not a lot of point in trying to assign chord functions.
Members Krank'N Posted December 17, 2010 Members Posted December 17, 2010 This is just a guess but I wouldnt be surprized if it was written with the method of having all chords be of the same shape in a composition. For example; songs are often composed where all the chords have the same intervals-such as Eb13-9 ,F13-9, Bb13-9 etc. Here the chord shape is the major interval so it would explain why all chords are major.
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 17, 2010 Author Members Posted December 17, 2010 Jonr, Killer Post man! That should be a sticky for years to come. Yes you are right Key Center is the better term and way of thinking of it. I am only now getting back to theory I studied 10+ years ago, and some of it is forgotten. This post helps connect some dots for me though. So where you typed "Parallel +MODE NAME" is that the official term? This means, if I am in E major, and I want to use C chord instead of C#m I borrow it from parallel E Aelian, correct? I think Joe Satriani calls these borrowing from modes whose tonal center that are the same as the songs key center: pitch axis theory. What is the rule or thinking behind all of the SD's? It's built on the concept of V of V's right? Also, it never occurred to me to use this concept with non-dominant voiced chords before, but it is cool that I can. I remember studying up on V of V's and V of V of V's etc but that was all the Dominant chord. Basically I want to the theory and rule to making a SD of the minor chords of a key G# = V of C#m, D# = V of G#m, C# = V of F#m, E7 = V of A besides the V of B. In a "Nutshell" hehe another AIC song, the song writing tool-rule might be when you want to find make a key's major chord minor OR when you want to move your Sharp/Flat Major Chord to down or up one semitone to just a Major Chord you should use Parallel Modal Interchange. If you want to make a key's minor chord to a Major chord need to use secondary dominants. Is that right? I wanted to add, I have seen in songs say in Emaj with an Eminor in a bridge, but it isn't common.
Members JonR Posted December 17, 2010 Members Posted December 17, 2010 I wanted to add, I have seen in songs say in Emaj with an Eminor in a bridge, but it isn't common.Its not uncommon for a song to use both parallel keys, in different sections. George Harrison's "Something" uses the keys of A minor, C major and A major. IOW, A minor and both its relative major and parallel major. It's a highly effective move, if you are in a minor key to begin with, to modulate to the parallel rather than the relative major. In fact technically this is not considered a modulation, because the keynote is the same: it's a "modal interchange". IOW, the aspect of modal interchange I've been talking about is borrowing other chords from the parallel key/mode. But you can go the whole hog and move completely to the parallel key/mode. However, for this to be effective, it's best if you don't do too much borrowing before the change, as that kind of gives the game away!
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 18, 2010 Author Members Posted December 18, 2010 IOW, the aspect of modal interchange I've been talking about is borrowing other chords from the parallel key/mode. But you can go the whole hog and move completely to the parallel key/mode. However, for this to be effective, it's best if you don't do too much borrowing before the change, as that kind of gives the game away! Modulating to the parallel key entirely allow full use of all its chords? Would this be done in a bridge or interlude, generally? BTW what is IOW or OTOH???? THat is Forum speak right? hehe
Members 1001gear Posted December 18, 2010 Members Posted December 18, 2010 in other words on the other hand http://www.gaarde.org/acronyms/
Members JonR Posted December 18, 2010 Members Posted December 18, 2010 Modulating to the parallel key entirely allow full use of all its chords? Would this be done in a bridge or interlude, generally?Yes, and yes! Another example from George Harrison is "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", which runs through a conventional A minor sequence twice, ending on E7 each time, but then easily slips into A major after the 2nd E7 (on "you're asking me...). He uses an almost full complement of chords from A major before that section slips back to A minor just as easily, following an E chord. Here's one of my favourite examples of modulation, I meant to post last time: At 0:28 the key changes abruptly from G major or Bb major. Huh? In fact, the Bb major turns out to be III of G minor, the main key of this second section, which is this: |Bb - - - |Gm - - - |D - - - | x 3 |Bb - - - |Gm - - - |A - - - |D - - - | D is dominant of G minor (and also of G major of course). The A is a secondary dominant, and the final D leads back to the first key of G major. But the use of Bb major to begin that section is audacious - just straight in, and after only 30 seconds or so of the song. The return to D does kind of suggest they haven't strayed too far (only to the parallel minor, not to the relative major of the parallel minor!) Another reason it works is that the chord changes are so slow and careful - a totally unchanging harmonic rhythm (rate of chord change). It's a pretty tune, but the song would be boring without that G-Bb change. If the rest of the changes were as surprising, that one wouldn't work so well. Here's another favourite: listen for the gorgeous change at exactly 1:00 It's Bb minor to C major, and no preparation. So why does that work? No idea, personally (you'd need some tortuous theoretical reasoning to do more than just describe it). But the return to Bb minor (at 1:40) is a clue. The C major sequence is C - Am - Ab - Bb. So they're already invoking C minor by borrowing Ab and Bb from there. Those 4 chords run 4 times, and then after the final Bb, they slip easily back to Bbm. Neat! IOW, Bb minor is - wait for it - the parallel minor of the subtonic of the parallel minor of C major! (I told you it was tortuous - and it still doesn't tell you "why" it works, as in why it sounds good.)
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 18, 2010 Author Members Posted December 18, 2010 First I want to ask more directly: Can you build a secondary dominant off of every scale degree? V/ I, ...V/ vii ? Also, is the dominant of a Minor Key, simply the iii of the parent Major key? So, E minor is the dominant chord of the Key of A minor ( Cmajor's iii chord). I haven't studied this yet, so I need to clarify this. I haven't written a song that was predominantly in a minor key yet. So, I haven't needed to really worry about the dominant chord of a minor before. Another basic question I want to ask: G Dominant is 5 scale degrees from and including the Tonic C : CDEFG, seven semitones or a perfect 5th. The strongest progression in western music is the movement of a key's dominant chord to the tonic, which is compromise of: 4 scales degrees up and including the Dominant chord to the octave tonic or 5 semitones up from the G note ( a perfect 4th) Another way to count the intervals would be - 5 scale degrees down from and including the original tonic or again, 7 semitones ( P5) . So what is the true way to express the gravity of this progression up a P4 or down a P5 ? Here's another favourite: listen for the gorgeous change at exactly 1:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBlx1JffMQ4 It's Bb minor to C major, and no preparation. So why does that work? No idea, personally (you'd need some tortuous theoretical reasoning to do more than just describe it). But the return to Bb minor (at 1:40) is a clue. The C major sequence is C - Am - Ab - Bb. So they're already invoking C minor by borrowing Ab and Bb from there. Those 4 chords run 4 times, and then after the final Bb, they slip easily back to Bbm. Neat! IOW, Bb minor is - wait for it - the parallel minor of the subtonic of the parallel minor of C major! (I told you it was tortuous - and it still doesn't tell you "why" it works, as in why it sounds good.) This is one strange song, but nice lush pad synth sounds. BTW, I am curious, did you learn all these songs previously to be sure of the chords? What is the key of the song? Bb minor??? The solo section is in C major/ C minor then back to Bb minor (parallel minor of C minor's subtonic) What are some examples of well known pop/rock songs that use: modal interchange ( borrowing from parallel minors) and or use second dominants?
Members akapuli Posted December 20, 2010 Members Posted December 20, 2010 It doesn't make sense to overanalyse the AIC compositions. Most of these nuances come from the fact that they are not highly educated musicians/arrangers IMHO. These major/minor shifts give very interesting turns in their music.
Members JonR Posted December 20, 2010 Members Posted December 20, 2010 Is it unusual for the secondary dominant to precede the dominant chord in pop/rock..jazz?? Not really. The example I always give is the Stones "Honky Tonk Women" (also key of G) which uses A to move to D. It's very much a country rock sound.
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 20, 2010 Author Members Posted December 20, 2010 It doesn't make sense to overanalyse the AIC compositions. Most of these nuances come from the fact that they are not highly educated musicians/arrangers IMHO. These major/minor shifts give very interesting turns in their music. It makes sense to me. I want to know why it works theoretically. Jerry and the late great Layne educated had EARS and talent for days,.... Theory and notation were only ever intended to make sense of music and record arrangements in a universal way. A musician doesn't need to know theory or how to sight read to be a great or even genius musician. Music is about hearing your musical voice with your mind's ear and literally your ears. Artistry is when you duplicate and build on what your hearing inside, especially if you can do it in real-time with accuracy with your instrument;)
Members Cary Chilton Posted December 20, 2010 Author Members Posted December 20, 2010 JonR, thanks again! Still not getting this: "Yes, Em is the dominant chord of A natural minor, or A aeolian mode. But the dominant chord of the A minor KEY is E major, or E7. This is because a "key" - in tonal music convention - needs a "leading tone"(raised 7th degree).You don't have to use E7 of course - you can compose in aeolian mode, and use a minor v (dominant) chord. (REM's "Losing My Religion" is one example.)" So in the key of Aminor, the dom chord is Emaj or E7? So it is customary to raise the 7th degree of Aminor, G, to G# ????? The subtonic diatonic chord remains intact right? Any other rules I should be aware that are special to the minor Key? Anymore examples for examining the SD or borrowing chords from parallel keys or even into modulation?
Members 1001gear Posted December 20, 2010 Members Posted December 20, 2010 It makes sense to me. I want to know why it works theoretically. Jerry and the late great Layne educated had EARS and talent for days,.... Theory and notation were only ever intended to make sense of music and record arrangements in a universal way. A musician doesn't need to know theory or how to sight read to be a great or even genius musician. Music is about hearing your musical voice with your mind's ear and literally your ears. Artistry is when you duplicate and build on what your hearing inside, especially if you can do it in real-time with accuracy with your instrument;) Try Varietyology as a screen. The ear is led, set up, then fooled and then teased etc. etc...
Members jeremy_green Posted December 20, 2010 Members Posted December 20, 2010 It makes sense to me. I want to know why it works theoretically. Jerry and the late great Layne educated had EARS and talent for days,.... Theory and notation were only ever intended to make sense of music and record arrangements in a universal way. A musician doesn't need to know theory or how to sight read to be a great or even genius musician. Music is about hearing your musical voice with your mind's ear and literally your ears. Artistry is when you duplicate and build on what your hearing inside, especially if you can do it in real-time with accuracy with your instrument;) Hey Cary, although I agree with you entirely in principle I do have to make one comment... I guess I dont HAVE to : ) The problem with the whole use your ears thing is that day to day I find my ear changes. Some days certain things sound great... other days not so much. If a piece isn't recorded - notated, the idea can become quickly lost, forgotten or deemed unworthy. My main issue with your statement is with the term "only ever". Once upon a time the only means to record oneself was through notation. So once upon a time it's importance was paramount to a serious musician and also the reason this music still exists to this day. Yes I am being nit-picky but only because it is an opportunity to discuss the pros-cons. Personally, I find if players can all read, it speeds up the process of writing immensely in a group situation. Sure doing a simple I,IV,V or 3 chord song with non readers fine. But if there are any shots, stops or complex changes you would not only need good ears - but a monster memory as well. Real life example: Last week we were trying out a new drummer for a project I am in. Great guy, real good chops. I brought an idea for a tune we could jam on. Had an intro > some shots > head > changes > head > intro out. Not crazy but challenging in spots. Problem was - the guy couldn't read at all. So instead of spending the session jamming, we spent the lions share of the time teaching him the tune and working out the parts. He would forget bits here and there etc. Long story short, it just made everything go at a snails pace going 'all ears'. By the time we got to jamming the tune the excitement was sucked out of it. Sadly for a guy with great chops our quest for the new player continues. Not to turn this into some pro-reading thread but typically in my travels, the only people who slag it or say it is unnecessary (not implying you were) are people who can't read. Having a rudimentary understanding of 'theory and notation' is SO helpful during the writing process. More-so when you deliver that idea to your band for the first time. For the record I am certainly not a great reader - but I have a rudimentary functional understanding of it. It has been VERY helpful when you start working with higher skilled players. Food for thought.
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