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Man, I suck at the guitar !!


Jed

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Posted

There, I've said it, . . now I feel better, . . and now I can become a better player.

 

In another thread JonR reminded the OP that he may have difficulty with some new practice routine. I immediately wanted to post something but didn't want to hi-jack the thread, so I'm starting a new one.

 

Early in my guitar playing journey, I played only stuff that I knew, stuff that I could play well and that I sounded good playing. I used to put on quite the front, letting people think I knew how to play the guitar. But inside, I always felt like a poser. I didn't really know what I was doing, I didn't know what notes and chords I was playing. I had just memorized some finger motions on the fretboard. If I ever had to play the same thing in another area of the fretboard, one that required different fingerings, I'd be screwed.

 

Now, many moons later, I enjoy finding my weaknesses. I dig looking at the same stuff in new ways just to see if I can stump myself. In a completely warped way, I dig finding stuff I suck at. Because once I find something I suck at, I can work to improve that aspect of my skills and maybe, just maybe, once I figure that weakness out, . . I'll suck a little bit less. And maybe someday way off in the future, I won't suck at all !! Meanwhile, I suck at the guitar - and I digg it !!

 

cheers,

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Posted

The idea of "sucking" or "being teh suck" does not enter my thought process when I encounter a musical idea I have never tried to express or haven't worked on at all.

 

Saying "I suck at playing funk guitar" is useless if I never work on or even play funk.

 

It's only after I've worked on an idea for a while and I still can't get it under my fingers or into my brain that I begin to start to think "I am definitely sucking at xxxx style of guitar playing"

When that happens then I take a break and step back, then redouble my efforts by doing more listening to more artists in the given genre that I'm working on.

 

I've always viewed playing the guitar as a life long process.

Early on I realized I liked all types of music and I wanted to play it all, jazz, flamenco, blues, classical - I want to play it all.

But being able to "play it all" takes a mere mortal like myself a little while, so I'm content to take a stepped approach to learning, kind of like I'm traveling along a musical road.

 

I've come to realize that I really love music and the guitar is my chosen vehicle for expression.

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Posted

Great post Jed! It really doesn't matter what level you are at pretty much all of us go through periods of "I suck". I just went through one too. The difference for me these days is I know the feeling will pass. So it doesn't get me down like it used to. I think that is the key, making it a motivator as opposed to getting you down.

  • Moderators
Posted

Here's an example of what I was thinking / talking about. A while back I found myself frustrated that I didn't have enough options for what to play over min7b5 chords. So I started working on diminished triad (1 b3 b5) and min7b5 (1 b3 b5 b7) arps. Before long arps got too boring and I discovered what I've come to think of as the Diminished Pentatonic scale (1 b3 b5 b6 b7). You may know it as a mode of the Dominant Pentatonic scale (1 2 3 5 b7).

 

This scale is the diatonic pentatonic scale for VIIm7b5, V9 and IIm6 chords:

Bmin7b5 = B D F A (add G the b6 to get the pentatonic) > B D F G A = 1 b3 b5 b6 b7 of B

G7 = G B D F (add A the 9 to get the pentatonic) > G A B D F = 1 2 3 5 b7 of G

Dm6 = D F A B (add G the 4 to get the pentatonic) > D F G A B = 1 b3 4 5 6 of D

 

So far so good, everything sounds right and makes sense theoretically, but then I had to internalize the scale in every key. I could have chosen to think of this as the Dominant Pentatonic similar to the way some people choose to think of the major pentatonic as it's relative minor, but I always felt that missed the point. C major and A minor may share the same note set but they are very different sounding scales. The notes serves different functions depending on whether the scale is serving the Imaj or VImin chords. So I started writing my own exercises, one the I find challenging is described below.

 

The idea is to use just the diminished pentatonic scale, descending by a 5th each bar, in a 12/8 feel - so triplets over each 1/4 note. The thing I find challenging is the mental part - being able to think in terms of the chord (in this case min7b5 chords) while singing the note name (in pitch, duh) and being aware of the note function relative to the chord of the moment. There's just so much to think about that I find this kind of exercise really exposes any weakness I have relative one key or another.

 

The attachment shows the five fingerings that i've settled on, both ascending and descending for the B diminished pentatonics. The second page shows some of the various transitions from the first chord ascending to the second chord descending, etc. The third page shows even more options for transitions. I'm curious about what you guys think about this and what ideas you may have for building similar skills.

 

cheers,

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Posted

I agree - with everyone :rolleyes:. I agree with Jed that it's a matter of attitude, of treating weaknesses as exciting challenges. But I also agree that "suck" is an unhelpful word. I understand why Jed's using it (to the obvious dismay of his poor mother - so THAT's who Virgman really is! Unmasked at last! :D), as it's common parlance. The problem with it is it can encourage the wrong atittude - "I suck, so I can never improve".

I have two attitudes when confronted with something I can't play. One is to practice until I can play it. No problem there. The other is to say "ah, I'm not that interested anyway."

After all, I couldn't run an Olympic marathon. Do I care? Do I f***.

I can't play at shred speeds. Do I care? Do I f***.

The one guitar technique I can't do at all - and would like to be able to - is B B King-style transverse vibrato. I simply can't waggle my left wrist that fast, let alone when it's gripping a guitar neck. (I can perform the action easilly with my right hand, and was much gratified to discover that B B King is left-handed - that's his good hand on the frets.)

However, while I would like to be able to do it, I don't want to enough to practice it hour after hour (and certainly not enough to convert to playing left-handed). I manage to get round it other ways - I play in ways which don't depend on it.

 

IOW, I think that sometimes there are "weaknesses" in one's technique that may be expressive of personal style. I'm not B B King, so why should I want to mimic him? Why should any of us struggle to play in ways that feel unnatural, at least if that springs from trying to emulate a hero? It's different if there's something we want to do because we feel it really IS "us" - but then I think the practice involved should never feel like hard work, always like an exciting journey.

 

Personally, I've never had long term goals in my music "career" (if ever a word deserved quotes it's that one ;)). I had fantasies of success, of course, but that's all they were. My goals were always short term: learn the next song, the next chord. Never any technical goals, unless that next song required a specific technique. For me, learning music and learning guitar has always been about exploring this strange foreign land; I don't want to get to the other side of it, or see the whole of it in a specific time frame; I'm happy just wandering about in it. I suppose I did have a fond idea that a time might come when I knew all I wanted to know - but I realised a while back that this "foreign land" has no boundaries - or, if it does, there's no danger of me reaching them in one lifetime.

 

As such, it seems I have a quite different attitude from Jed's. I'm reasonably satisfied with how I play guitar, and have been for some time. I'm not a great player by any means (I know my weaknesses), but I'm good enough for just about any music I would ever want to play. I certainly have no hunger to constantly improve for the sake of it, and never did - I just believe that I improve slowly anyway, the more I play and the more I learn. I know there are always going to be players much better than me (the vast majority of them decades younger), so why worry? As long as I can do what I always used to be able to - and then a little bit more - that's plenty at my age.

 

Where Jed's post did hit home was how he used to feel like a "poser". Me too, at least when playing live. I can never look anyone in the audience in the eye, because I think they will see straight through me "what's he think he's doing up there, he isn't a rock star! who's he trying to kid?" And it's not like I ever do any guitar-hero posing, I just stand and play. In fact, of course, guitar-hero posing is a way round that, because it's obviously tongue-in-cheek: I might strike the occasional pose, in the understanding that the audience knows it's ironic, that's it's part of the deal. We're just a pub covers band; as such, any pretensions beyond that are patently ridiculous and everyone knows it; so it can be amusing to (say) attempt a duck walk in Johnny B Goode - esp as I can never carry it off.

This is how "local entertainment" works: a pub audience doesn't expect a great rock band with all the trimmings, just a bunch of amateurs having a laugh (while doing their best of course). That's absolutely fine with me, and is the kind of live environment I've always regarded as ideal. I've always been uncomfortable at jazz-type gigs where an audience sits in rows and contemplates everything you do. I always feel inadequate in those situations - I think because when I go to that kind of gig, I want to be amazed by musical invention and excitement. I know I can play well, but I'm never sure I can be sufficiently amazing.

I much prefer a party atmosphere where the crowd is just out to have a good time - it was the greatest epiphany of my "career" (that word again) when I realised this: the deep thrill of seeing an audience dancing to what you're playing. To me there's nothing better, no better purpose for live music.

To be sure, there's an element of "pressure off" about it - but also a primal sense that that's what music is for. You may be playing "crowd-pleasers" - but what else should one want to play? "crowd-borers"? ;)

  • Members
Posted

Here's an example of what I was thinking / talking about. A while back I found myself frustrated that I didn't have enough options for what to play over min7b5 chords. So I started working on diminished triad (1 b3 b5) and min7b5 (1 b3 b5 b7) arps. Before long arps got too boring and I discovered what I've come to think of as the Diminished Pentatonic scale (1 b3 b5 b6 b7). You may know it as a mode of the Dominant Pentatonic scale (1 2 3 5 b7).


This scale is the diatonic pentatonic scale for VIIm7b5, V9 and IIm6 chords:

Bmin7b5 = B D F A (add G the b6 to get the pentatonic) > B D F G A = 1 b3 b5 b6 b7 of B

G7 = G B D F (add A the 9 to get the pentatonic) > G A B D F = 1 2 3 5 b7 of G

Dm6 = D F A B (add G the 4 to get the pentatonic) > D F G A B = 1 b3 4 5 6 of D


So far so good, everything sounds right and makes sense theoretically, but then I had to internalize the scale in every key. I could have chosen to think of this as the Dominant Pentatonic similar to the way some people choose to think of the major pentatonic as it's relative minor, but I always felt that missed the point. C major and A minor may share the same note set but they are very different sounding scales. The notes serves different functions depending on whether the scale is serving the Imaj or VImin chords. So I started writing my own exercises, one the I find challenging is described below.


The idea is to use just the diminished pentatonic scale, descending by a 5th each bar, in a 12/8 feel - so triplets over each 1/4 note. The thing I find challenging is the mental part - being able to think in terms of the chord (in this case min7b5 chords) while singing the note name (in pitch, duh) and being aware of the note function relative to the chord of the moment. There's just so much to think about that I find this kind of exercise really exposes any weakness I have relative one key or another.


The attachment shows the five fingerings that i've settled on, both ascending and descending for the B diminished pentatonics. The second page shows some of the various transitions from the first chord ascending to the second chord descending, etc. The third page shows even more options for transitions. I'm curious about what you guys think about this and what ideas you may have for building similar skills.


cheers,

All good stuff Jed, nothing useful I can add. (I admire your drive to improve in this way, even if I don't share it.;))

 

I'd just mention the b3 pent, aka dorian pent, which I think I marginally prefer in this situation. A m7b5 chord would use a mode of it, and it has the 4th of the scale in place of the b6.

So on Bm7b5, it would be B D E F A.

As with your scale, it works well on G7 and Dm6 too. The notes are less evenly distributed than in the dim pent, of course, but I quite like the E-F/F-A difference. (I like your scale too, mind.)

 

If I had strategies for practising it and learning it, they would be very similar to yours - but I don't. :rolleyes: I think I know how to find any pattern of it when I want it, although maybe not quite as quickly as I would ideally like. But then I never regarded having to stop and think during a solo (for a second or so anyway) as a big disadvantage, any more than not being able to play particularly fast.;)

  • Members
Posted

A few years ago, my son and I were taking a day-trip down to CT to see Dream Theater. At the time, he was starting to teach himself guitar (he switched to drums later, but that's another story). He was 14 at the time.

 

At the time, he was lamenting over how he sucks at it. So I asked him, "Do you want the good news first or the bad news?"

 

"Good news first."

 

"OK. Good news. Playing guitar is a blast. It's a never-ending journey full of surprises. There's always something new to learn about. In fact, the more you learn, the more there is TO learn."

 

"Yah. I get that. The bad news?"

 

"No matter how good you get, you'll always think you suck. The better you get, the further away your concept of 'GOOD' gets."

 

So that night, we had backstage passes and he asked John Petrucci if he thinks he's a good guitar player. Without missing a beat, John said, "I suck. I've got so far to go."

 

It's hopeless. We all suck at this. Just accept it. :-)

  • Members
Posted

We're guitar players. We suck. That's life.

 

Regarding approaches to the min7b5...as a rock guy, I hardly ever see this chord, but if I did, I just think of it as being a Dom9 chord without the root...so Bmin7b5 = G9 = Dmin (Dorian)..once I've found the Dorian, I'm good to go for most purposes. Probably not very efficient or even correct :lol:

  • Members
Posted

 

Here's an example of what I was thinking / talking about. A while back I found myself frustrated that I didn't have enough options for what to play over min7b5 chords. So I started working on diminished triad (1 b3 b5) and min7b5 (1 b3 b5 b7) arps. Before long arps got too boring and I discovered what I've come to think of as the Diminished Pentatonic scale (1 b3 b5 b6 b7). You may know it as a mode of the Dominant Pentatonic scale (1 2 3 5 b7).


This scale is the diatonic pentatonic scale for VIIm7b5, V9 and IIm6 chords:

Bmin7b5 = B D F A (add G the b6 to get the pentatonic) > B D F G A = 1 b3 b5 b6 b7 of B

G7 = G B D F (add A the 9 to get the pentatonic) > G A B D F = 1 2 3 5 b7 of G

Dm6 = D F A B (add G the 4 to get the pentatonic) > D F G A B = 1 b3 4 5 6 of D


So far so good, everything sounds right and makes sense theoretically, but then I had to internalize the scale in every key. I could have chosen to think of this as the Dominant Pentatonic similar to the way some people choose to think of the major pentatonic as it's relative minor, but I always felt that missed the point. C major and A minor may share the same note set but they are very different sounding scales. The notes serves different functions depending on whether the scale is serving the Imaj or VImin chords. So I started writing my own exercises, one the I find challenging is described below.


The idea is to use just the diminished pentatonic scale, descending by a 5th each bar, in a 12/8 feel - so triplets over each 1/4 note. The thing I find challenging is the mental part - being able to think in terms of the chord (in this case min7b5 chords) while singing the note name (in pitch, duh) and being aware of the note function relative to the chord of the moment. There's just so much to think about that I find this kind of exercise really exposes any weakness I have relative one key or another.


The attachment shows the five fingerings that i've settled on, both ascending and descending for the B diminished pentatonics. The second page shows some of the various transitions from the first chord ascending to the second chord descending, etc. The third page shows even more options for transitions. I'm curious about what you guys think about this and what ideas you may have for building similar skills.


cheers,

 

 

Noyhing wrong with your theory anyways Jed!!!

  • Members
Posted

 

The attachment shows the five fingerings that i've settled on, both ascending and descending for the B diminished pentatonics. The second page shows some of the various transitions from the first chord ascending to the second chord descending, etc. The third page shows even more options for transitions. I'm curious about what you guys think about this and what ideas you may have for building similar skills.


cheers,

 

 

I like the idea a lot. It shows a willingness to be incredibly thorough. I go through stages where I do that kind of work to explore as many possibilities as the my limited brain can think of.

 

Most of the time, my choices around m7b5 chords tend to boil down to either chord tones, pentatonics like the ones you described or scales (typically locrian or aeolian b5 depending on context).

 

Other times, I'll transcribe a solo that uses the sound I'm interested in learning. After that, I like to "re-engineer" the solo; improvise my best guess on what might have been an "alternate take" of the same solo.

 

These days I tend to create a chord progression, then try to "write" a solo that uses the sound I'm trying to get my ears around.

 

It's good to attack the problem from a few angles.

  • Members
Posted

A few years ago, my son and I were taking a day-trip down to CT to see Dream Theater. At the time, he was starting to teach himself guitar (he switched to drums later, but that's another story). He was 14 at the time.


At the time, he was lamenting over how he sucks at it. So I asked him, "Do you want the good news first or the bad news?"


"Good news first."


"OK. Good news. Playing guitar is a blast. It's a never-ending journey full of surprises. There's always something new to learn about. In fact, the more you learn, the more there is TO learn."


"Yah. I get that. The bad news?"


"No matter how good you get, you'll always think you suck. The better you get, the further away your concept of 'GOOD' gets."


So that night, we had backstage passes and he asked John Petrucci if he thinks he's a good guitar player. Without missing a beat, John said, "I suck. I've got so far to go."

:thu: Lovely story!

Hopefully your son was duly chastened and inspired. (I would have been tempted to think "what a wanker" (false modesty, too serious) - but I suspect Petrucci is not that dumb - I guess he knew just the right thing to say to a young hopeful.)

 

Of course, the downside would be the thought "S***, if Petrucci has a long way to go, then I've got light years!!!:eek: :cry:"

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