Members polishpaul Posted January 16, 2011 Members Posted January 16, 2011 My post lost.............I deleted this post in the duplicate thread thinking it was here.....but it isn't! And guess who cleaned his computer yesterday! I've tried three 'undelete' programs, to no avail. If anybody copied the text from the forum and still has it, please PM me so I can get it back.
Members JonR Posted January 16, 2011 Members Posted January 16, 2011 Just a few comments/corrections... What about going up from D7 to G major, instead of down, as with C to B? Try F# in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first). It's a resoltion......the release of a musical tension......but not (to me) as powerful as the C to B 'seventh to third' resolution.I think you'd be in a minority there.At least you need to mention - opinions aside - that this is the classic move in a V-I cadence. It works with triads, you don't need 7ths.The 7th on the dom7 adds an additional tension (because of the 3rd-7th tritone), that's all.
Members polishpaul Posted January 16, 2011 Author Members Posted January 16, 2011 Yes.....an E major chord.....I was editing and the '7' remained in from a D7 reference. Re, from JonR: "What about going up from D7 to G major, instead of down, as with C to B? Try F# in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first). It's a resolution......the release of a musical tension......but not (to me) as powerful as the C to B 'seventh to third' resolution." I suppose all this depends on how you play the chord tones. When I was playing over D7 to G major, the G root sounded more resolved after C to B, than F# to D........I was moving down with the notes on each occasion, so this may account for it. I will have a more careful listen of D to F# to G, - as indeed should anybody studying this topic! Thanks for popping in with the comments and corrections. You have helped me get a fuller understanding. I'm trying to express how I've got to the stage I'm at now, to help the novice along. I assumed that any errors/misguided statements of mine would be duly tackled by the more experienced here, so I didn't see any harm in having a go . In fact, I think it provides for a better learning curve when people come to in to elaborate and iron out the rough spots........although my cred goes down the pan .
Members JonR Posted January 16, 2011 Members Posted January 16, 2011 Yes.....an E major chord.....I was editing and the '7' remained in from a D7 reference. Re:"What about going up from D7 to G major, instead of down, as with C to B? Try F# in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first). It's a resolution......the release of a musical tension......but not (to me) as powerful as the C to B 'seventh to third' resolution."I suppose all this depends on how you play the chord tones. When I was playing over D7 to G major, the G root sounded more resolved after C to B, than F# to D........I was moving down with the notes on each occasion, so this may account for it. I will have a more careful listen of D to F# to G, - as indeed should anybody studying this topic!Thanks for popping in with the comments and corrections. You have helped me get a fuller understanding.Don't mention it. I feel slightly mean for picking holes when you've done all the work! But it's worth exploring all different voicings for that chord change. (We can keep this thread as a supplementary to your main lesson one if you like). Eg, how about starting with the simplest possible - roots plus guide tones (the 5ths of both chords are less important and tend to muddy the picture to begin with): -2---3---------------------------------1---0---------------------------------------------------------------------0----------------------------------------------------------------------------3------------------------------- That illustrates the moves of both the guide tones, along with the classic root move down a 5th. You should be able to hear that upward resolution in the top voice (very classical!).In this case the tritone resolves outwards: augmented 4th (C-F#) going to minor 6th (B-G). Here's the alternative, inverting the tritone: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------5---4-------------------------------4---5--------------------------------5---------------------------------------3------------------------------- Now the tritone resolves inwards: diminished 5th (F#-C) going to major 3rd (G-B). In this case the classical leading-tone-to-tonic move is obscured slightly by being a middle voice, with the "upper leading tone" being more prominent.
Members polishpaul Posted January 16, 2011 Author Members Posted January 16, 2011 From JonR:"Don't mention it. I feel slightly mean for picking holes when you've done all the work!" No problem, JonR, no problem at all. I know I'm not alone in greatly appreciating your input here. You may have seen that I've re-threaded my original post, in line with your comments, to minimize confusion. Maybe you could move your posts here to the new thread, and empty your post boxes here, to keep things on an even keel? If you do that, I'll put an "ignore this thread" notice at the top, or a mod could remove it.
Members JonR Posted January 17, 2011 Members Posted January 17, 2011 No problem - I have no more to add right now, so feel free to get the thread deleted
Members polishpaul Posted January 17, 2011 Author Members Posted January 17, 2011 Cheers. JonR. Looking back.....this: "Try F# in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first)" should have been.... "Try A in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first). I was looking for a weaker resolution, and an A to G seemed to fit the bill. I lost sight a little of my original thinking, which was to show how resolutions not involving the root - like C to B and A to D - needed to be listened to, to get an understanding of their sonic strengths and weaknesses. However, I found a couple of JonR's points interesting. Firstly that chord tones are known as "guide tones" only in jazz. I can't remember having read that on the web. And secondly, the fact that a chord's seventh can be referred to as an upper leading note, leading note and leading tone. It's useful to have that info on the terminology. (My thanks to whoever jiggled things around to make this thread 'normal' ).
Members JonR Posted January 19, 2011 Members Posted January 19, 2011 And secondly, the fact that a chord's seventh can be referred to as an upper leading note, leading note and leading tone.Again, check those links I posted to be sure you're getting this right. The 7th can be called an "upper leading tone/note", but not (AFAIK) as merely a "leading tone". The phrase "leading tone" refers to the 7th scale degree (of the key), usually as the 3rd of the V chord. Eg, in a G7-C cadence, B is "the leading tone"; but F can be referred to as an "upper leading tone". (Although I guess it would have to be voiced above the B, which is not always the case.)
Members polishpaul Posted January 19, 2011 Author Members Posted January 19, 2011 Quoting you quoting me (sounds like Abba): "Looking back.....this: "Try F# in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first)" should have been.... "Try A in D7 (third) up to G in G major (first)." It should have been "A in D7 (fifth) down to G in G major (first). That's where my mind was at the time.....looking for a weaker resolution than C to B, so the two resolutions could be listened to and opinions formed. But maybe it isn't weaker......I now know I need to know more. Since I lost the original post, what with skipping between two threads in an attempt to make at least one of the threads look normal, the whole thing has become, perhaps, to say the least, moreover, in as far as the facts can be ascertained..................a mess. But JonR is sticking with it, so I will, too. My original idea was to point out that there are various ways, melodically, of moving away from a dominant seventh and into the tonic chord......as there are of course various ways of moving melodically from 'any' chord' to 'any' chord. From what I'd gathered from surfing, using chord tones is an important way of doing this. When I first began my surfing for musical info, about ten years ago, I never found much on this. These days there is much more on the subject, as there is on almost everything else. I was trying to emphasize the importance of all this, having read a lot on it, so that beginners could try it out on a simple example - D7 to G major. Most of the confusion I may have caused has been due to sloppiness, especially in copying and pasting, editing, and staying focussed. As a former newspaper reporter, I should do better than this. I knew what I meant, but this is not what appeared in LL. This was sloppy also.....I wrote: "However, I found a couple of JonR's points interesting. Firstly that chord tones are known as "guide tones" only in jazz. I can't remember having read that on the web." This was posted after he'd come in to explain that just the thirds and sevenths are known as guide tones in jazz. The fact that my reply didn't mention the "thirds and sevenths" point is inexcuseable. So JonR had to come back in and point this out for a second time. I need a sharp kick up the backside, to be honest. Anyway........ This thread has probably achieved it's original goal.............people have been informed that the use of chord tones needs to be studied, firstly theoretically, and then by incorporating them in one's playing and applying a careful ear to all the different sonic possibilities. I make way for my honorable mentor, he whom we all know as JonR.
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