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New track of an upcoming project. Opinions on phrasing and harmony are welcome.


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Posted

Here's a tune I wrote and is just a rough mix.

Since I know there are some great players on this board I figured I would get an opinion on the improv section and phrasing as it always the main areas I try to improve.

Thanks in advance for listening

 

http://soundcloud.com/nadis84/feelies?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fnadis84%2Ffeelies

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Posted

Kinda Cool, mang. Dig the dim based distorto section....although the tone was a bit too mid focused for my taste, but that could be my crappy 'puter speakers. My constructive criticism on the phrasing is that since the harmony has an angular feel, make the phrasing in the solo rhythmically angular as well. And while it hade some nice intervallic jumps, it was just too linear rhythmically for the big jumps to take hold. More space between phrases!

 

My 2Cents. Hope it helps.

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Posted

I totally agree with 3gs: needs some breaths in the soloing.

 

I also found the fast deep "intrusive" vibrato at the beginning obnoxious, but clearly this is a matter of taste. But if you don't think that sound is crucial, I'd tone it down lest you put off people before they even get to the meat of the piece!

 

GaJ

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Posted

I liked the drums, but the room sound was a little washy, contrasted with DRY bass wasn't as disconcerting as the solo guitar's (single coil??) ultra wet reverb. If those are live recorded drums, there isn't much to bring out more focus. If there are programmed, reduce the room sound. The bass should stay where it is, maybe add some 4:1 moderate compression. No compression on the drum IF that is a live drum recording ( spaced pair or XY?) because the room wash will only get worse.

 

The guitars: the dissonant stuff in the beginning and near the end, I would hard pan both mono tracks for max stereo bandwidth, little reverb, but not much : perceived dry sounding but enough to blend with the drums' room. Drop the volume of these sections. Compress it @ 4:1 with light compression. The solo guitar, low pass at 10kHz -6db as a start, med narrow Q @ 1 kHz -3db as a start, add some low mids +3 to +5dB @ 150hz and /or/ to 280Hz to warm that ice-pick tone a bit. Pan LEAD gtr just off center, 10-11 or 1-2 oclock pan the mono reverb to the OPPOSITE side, hard left or right. Compress your solo guitar with about 4:1 or 6:1 compression, fast attack, med release to bring out the quieter portions and also to reshape the sharp sounding highs... EQ your reverb low pass 3-4kHz to kill some of the shrill highs... Try a different reverb, big room or medium hall or small to medium church and or medium plate. Do not feed the reverb channel too hot.

 

Bass volume ride the bass guitar up or down +/-2dB to fill out the song and or cut some of the muddiness. Keep the energy of the song there without going overboard.

 

goodluck

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Posted

Great feedback. Thanks I will try to play with it some more. The drums are programmed so I can take some of the reverb down. The tone of the guitar is solo is middy and shrill so I need to maybe add some low mids. But I was going for a fuzzed out cranked combo tone.

With the phrasing, I realize now there are a lot of straight 16th notes so I'll try to add some breath.

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Posted

This is just a personal peeve - the development is too blocky. The rhythms are interesting but the actual momentum goes 1 2 3 4 ...8, reset 1 2 3 4 ....8 reset etc. through the guitar solo and then changes to 9 but same deal - 1 2 3 .... 9, reset 1 2 3 ....9, reset etc. In spite of all the stuff transpiring it feels like nothing's happening.

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Posted

Hm do you mean like there should be more tempo changes or push pull with the grooves?

This is also just a demo for my bandmates to learn the tune and get an idea so I think once we jam it'll have more life.

I also am going for a more dissonant angular harmony and rhythm like oz noy and wayne krantz.

 

Any examples (youtube, lessons, music to check, etc.) would help a lot to get a better idea.

Thanks

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Posted

Interesting you bring up Wayne Krantz. The rhythmic squareness is more like Yngwie. You know:

 

weedly weedly weedly weedly weedly weedly hold

 

weedly weedly weedly weedly weedly weedly hold

 

tiddly widly weedly weedly weedly weedly what else, hold...

 

It's almost as if the meter has become the riff.

 

Retarded to me lol. You don't need to get all Stravinsky but if a section goes on for 16 bars it needs 16 bars of continuity not 2 bar blocks 8 times.

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Posted

 

Hm do you mean like there should be more tempo changes or push pull with the grooves?

 

 

I _think_ that what he might mean (and certainly what holds true for me) is that the song is in blocks. You can take it on a time line and divide it into sections/blocks "this the vibratoy section, this is the x section this is the y section" and there's not much development that leads from one block to the next block, musically.

 

At 0:10 it cuts from the intro block to the honky trumpet sound block. At 0:31 it cuts to the plucky guitar block. At 0:50 it cuts to the distorted lead block. etc. But what is the musical relationship between these blocks, what is the overall "story"....

 

GaJ

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Posted

Just to clarify while we're still on this, I'm looking at a slightly higher resolution. If you take the plucky guitar part and give it 8 counts just to set the pulse here, the progressive rhythm of the plucking allows the passage to progress at least for the 8 count duration. By the time the saxy guitar solo comes around though, it's clear that beat one gets hammered 99% of the time. This is often aggravated by that Yngwie rest immediately preceding it. The developmental effect is a reset every 4 beats. Abortive and predictable to tears.

 

Back to Krantz, he has an amazing trio and can go on for great lengths in 4/4 with the onus on you the listener so I imagine there will be better incarnations from you. Don't like the rhythm so far is all I'm saying. (the plucky parts cool though)

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Posted

 

Great feedback. Thanks I will try to play with it some more. The drums are programmed so I can take some of the reverb down. The tone of the guitar is solo is middy and shrill so I need to maybe add some low mids. But I was going for a fuzzed out cranked combo tone.

With the phrasing, I realize now there are a lot of straight 16th notes so I'll try to add some breath.

 

 

Yep KILL the reverb on the drum by 90% percent, really. I have no clue what your using to mix with, but if you have a cubase or reaper, logic etc you can use a "room" reverb, medium size and add in to where you "perceive" the programmed drums don't sound as stiff, but you still don't really hear the reverb much at all. For this style of music, it would be best. The solo is indeed shrill, sounds like a single coil strat on the bridge pickup.

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Posted

Personally I don't mind the drum sound - I think the reverb level is just fine. (They could have a little less, but I didn't notice it as a problem.)

The main things I don't like are:

1. the big contrast in tone/effect between intro and after the drums come in. I don't like the distortion effect generally, IMO it's over the top, for this style. (It sounds more like a demo for an effects unit than a piece of music.;)) The track is much more effective with the clean sound (with or without tremelo). I think it's because its aggressive vibe sounds fake. It doesn't really bite convincingly; there's no musical purpose for it, IOW.

2. there's also a timing issue when the drums enter. It sounds out of time, or maybe just that there's not enough pause beforehand.

3. I agree with the others about the phrasing on the distorted section. Too much on the beat - sounds much more amateurish than the other sections. (Also the timing is just a little shaky here and there. This kind of music needs to be absolutely 100% crisp on the timing.)

4. Bass not prominent enough. Needs to have a harder edge, IMO, but a little more forward in the mix would do. As it is, it's like the lead guitar and drums are the only show in town.

5. Effects at 2:45 too gimmicky (again, like a demo for a new toy).

6. Overall, not enough sense of the form. On first listen, just sounds like random dissonances, like someone who doesn't know what they're doing, but just wants to sound "weird". But I can tell there is a structure, elements of careful planning (synchronised syncopations etc). They just don't amount to much. A lot of it would be OK as a loose groove in the middle of a more structured composition.

 

Sounds like a lot of criticism! But there is some interesting thinking in there, and some musical intelligence. But (for me) it's too kind of fragmented, half-hearted. Fusion like this - with the metrical shifts, etc - needs to sound a lot more confident and in your face. I would knock the distortion right back (not lose it completely), and try and get the aggressive bite in those sections via your attack instead. The more notes you play in that section, the more impact you lose. (IMHO only, remember.;))

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Posted

Loved it man! Some real nice sonic explorations going on there. You got some cool phrases in your bag. You fall off the groove a bit ... but nothing really out of hand.

 

If you want me to be really picky I would say I would love to hear some more bass - not the frequency the player. Less drum verb. Also I would break up the parts a little more so they are not as equal measure count wise. Some surprises in the arrangement would add to the coolness. Maybe a bar of 7 here or there that type of thing. All of this has been said.

 

I love the fearlessness of it. Keep that whatever you do.

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Posted

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate the constructive criticism as I can zone in on my problem areas.

Any good books or resources for creative arrangement or song writing out there? One of my weak spots has always been transitions and making songs have a nice flow. I like to challenge the listener with dissonances, polyrhythms, and tension. With that I like to create a balance with harmonic/rhythmic motifs and allusions but not make it too obvious.

I've been on a Nels Cline kick recently and when I first discovered him I didn't get it but now I appreciate that he is a sonic master and great creative player. Seeing him live is even better. Needless to say I'm not in that realm yet ha. Striving for it is a fun journey though.

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Posted

I think The Lesson Loft needs more stuff like this.......a player putting him/herself on the line, and standing back to wait for the reaction.

 

What a great way to learn! Is there a better way, other than playing live?

 

I am going to post up some of my playing as soon as this present spell of my battling with nature ends.....nothing too serious, but it's cold, and a few things about the house have gone haywire......time-consuming stuff.

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Posted

 

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate the constructive criticism as I can zone in on my problem areas.

Any good books or resources for creative arrangement or song writing out there? One of my weak spots has always been transitions and making songs have a nice flow. I like to challenge the listener with dissonances, polyrhythms, and tension. With that I like to create a balance with harmonic/rhythmic motifs and allusions but not make it too obvious.

I've been on a Nels Cline kick recently and when I first discovered him I didn't get it but now I appreciate that he is a sonic master and great creative player. Seeing him live is even better. Needless to say I'm not in that realm yet ha. Striving for it is a fun journey though.

Nels Cline is a lovely player, but he's a lot more orthodox than the kind of thing you're going for here. (At least he is when working with Wilco, an ordinary mainstream rock outfit - I've not heard him outside that context.)

 

From your track, it sounds like you'd be more into the likes of John Scofield:

 

or maybe even Marc Ribot:

 

Ribot's stuff is pretty free, but that Scofield track is tightly written and structured (typical jazz-funk fusion).

 

or on the mellower side of the left-field, Bill Frisell:

 

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