Members meganutt7 Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 So, the other day (a couple of weeks ago) I was feeling down on myself for not being "where I want to be" musically on some levels... After a jam session with one of my favorite musicians, a super badass keyboard player, we were riding home, and, as is our habit, we discussed things musical and personal... I brought up to him that I would like to, for instance, comp more like a pianist, in the way their rhythms flow, and the "melodic" quality their comping often possesses. He said something to me that was so simple and obvious, I could hardly believe it... He asked: "Well, how much music are you listening to??". I answered "not that much lately, to be honest.. I have just been working on stuff..." He then said something along the lines of: "Well, all you really have to do is LISTEN to something alot and let it get into your subconscious.... If you don't, you won't be able to call upon those elements when you're improvising...." I approached that answer wit hequal parts awe and sarcastic abandon, but decided to heed the advice and see how I fared... I listened intently to two tracks in particular, over and over again, until I could hear the parts in my head clearly and without compromise.... I did not transcribe anything off the record or jam along with it.. I just listened... alot.... Bottomline, he was right... We played a gig a few nights later with our quartet and, though I usually garner alot of compliments from people anyway (not to sound too arrogant), but this night in particular EVERYONE was all over me... Even I felt much more masterful and able to anticipate what was going to happen... Changes, rhythms, etc. I was just flowing more... And I owe it all to actually doing LESS on a physical/muscle memory level... I guess a good analogy is when you want to give a great speech, it is often easier to hear a few great speeches, not to steal words and phrases from, but to feel the aura of the speaker... to get a bit of the "grandiosity" of the WAY THEY CARRY THEIR OWN WORDS AND IDEAS and DELIVER THEM to the masses.... Anyway, I thought I would share... So, in case you haven't, or aren't... LISTEN TO SOME MUSIC THAT YOU LOVE... Just listen to a track over and over again... focus on different instruments on every new listen... listen to the sounds, the contours of the notes, the rhythms, dynamics, production... Really immerse yourself in the recording and you may just get some spontaneous gifts back in return... BTW, I got a bunch of tracks from the first album and a bunch from the second album on my new soundcloud account... you can check it at: www.soundcloud.com/dannyhayoun The tracks off the first album (if you go into the SETS) are labeled as "Hail, Seizure!!!" and the newer tracks are from the SET labeled "Seizure Salad!!!". T^he former are heavier, and weirder and the production is a bit more rough (it was pre-Protools...) Anyway, Enjoy.
Members Gaetano Paul Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Hmmm Good word man, something to chew on.
Members honeyiscool Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Yes it's important just to listen to music so that it's burned into you and then it has a chance of flowing out. Anyway, I can offer some specific advice to what you wanted to accomplish in the first place. As a pianist first and foremost, I find that I've never really had to worry about this divide between rhythm and lead playing, because on piano, it's one and the same. If you want to sound like a pianist, I think the thing that pianists do naturally is that we think of our right hand chords top down rather than bottom up. On a guitar, you think of E major, and then you move your hand to the E position and you play the E major chord and you usually strum downward as well. When you want to have a different color, you change the base note to something else, but it's always the bottom note guitarists are concerned about, and the treble note often gets lost anyway. A pianist doesn't do this. The bottom notes of your right hand get lost. We think, we're in the chord of E major, but I want the note of G# to be at the top. Then we form the chord from top down, and depending on what color we want, we don't even really play the E major chord, we just pick some other notes of the scale to form that chord. But the bottom line is that we don't really think of the chord. We think of the MELODY that the top notes of all these successive chords create, and we're just so used to putting chords under them. I tend to play 4-note chords, which makes sense on piano but is hard on guitar, but if you have very good knowledge of three-string chords, you can make three-note chord riffs on guitar all day and you'll sound fresh and different because guitarists just don't do this very often. It's very difficult, though.
Members meganutt7 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Members Posted April 25, 2011 Honestly.. I thought it was just bull{censored}... I mean, I figured it wouldn't just seep in by osmosis.. and it's not like if you listen to Giant Steps, two days later, with no work, you can play Coltranes' solo spot on at tempo... unless you're Mozart or another savant... But what you WILL do is start using some of the rhythms he used, some of the comping rhythms or contours that the pianist used, etc. It just opens you up to that sort of phrasing and frame of mind when you ultimately get on stage....
Members meganutt7 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Members Posted April 25, 2011 Yes it's important just to listen to music so that it's burned into you and then it has a chance of flowing out.Anyway, I can offer some specific advice to what you wanted to accomplish in the first place. As a pianist first and foremost, I find that I've never really had to worry about this divide between rhythm and lead playing, because on piano, it's one and the same. If you want to sound like a pianist, I think the thing that pianists do naturally is that we think of our right hand chords top down rather than bottom up. On a guitar, you think of E major, and then you move your hand to the E position and you play the E major chord and you usually strum downward as well. When you want to have a different color, you change the base note to something else, but it's always the bottom note guitarists are concerned about.A pianist doesn't do this. We think, we're in the chord of E major, but I want the note of G# to be at the top. Then we form the chord from top down, and depending on what color we want, we don't even really play the E major chord, we just pick some other notes of the scale to form that chord. But the bottom line is that we don't really think of the chord. We think of the MELODY that the top notes of all these successive chords create, and we're just so used to putting chords under them.I tend to play 4-note chords, which makes sense on piano but is hard on guitar, but if you have very good knowledge of three-string chords, you can make three-note chord riffs on guitar all day and you'll sound fresh and different because guitarists just don't do this very often. It's very difficult, though. Honey, thanks for your reply... I don't really need help with the theoretical aspects of chord construction from a pianists' perspective, though your advice is appreciated.. I have bee nbuilding chords in that way for quite some time... It's just the more creative and spontaneous usage of those chords and just interesting voicings, rhythms, etc. that got me wanting to be able to utilize more of that style of playing... Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, Mulgrew Miller.... you know.... that school.. McCoy Tyner, too, of course... That is what I have resorted to now, more than anything, is fourth voicings and interesting voicings with open strings that create (sometimes) clusters that would be easy to play on piano, but exceedingly difficult on guitar (if you don't want tendonitis...) Regardless, though, I really appreciate your advice and post and I am sure that it will be informative and helpful to others!!! Cheers, bretheren!
Members honeyiscool Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 I'm bad with vocabulary because I never formally learned any of it and my teacher thought it was unimportant anyway, all of my jazz training was just playing along to people and stuff of that sort. Yeah, pianists love closely spaced intervals. We'll play "chords" like C-Db-Eb-F#-A on D major and not only that, we can voice the chords even further by making certain notes louder than others and creating emphasis that way, something that you need to do when you're playing so many dissonant notes. Guitarists will never really be able to do that kind of stuff unless you have a truly exotic tuning and amazing right hand control, but if you have a bit of economy you can still find the notes that will have a similar flavor.
Members JonnyPac Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Honey, thanks for your reply... I don't really need help with the theoretical aspects of chord construction from a pianists' perspective, though your advice is appreciated.. I have bee nbuilding chords in that way for quite some time... It's just the more creative and spontaneous usage of those chords and just interesting voicings, rhythms, etc. that got me wanting to be able to utilize more of that style of playing... Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, Mulgrew Miller.... you know.... that school.. McCoy Tyner, too, of course... That is what I have resorted to now, more than anything, is fourth voicings and interesting voicings with open strings that create (sometimes) clusters that would be easy to play on piano, but exceedingly difficult on guitar (if you don't want tendonitis...)Regardless, though, I really appreciate your advice and post and I am sure that it will be informative and helpful to others!!!Cheers, bretheren! Can you kick off a thread with your views on classic jazz piano voicings on the guitar? I'm 100% with you there. I've love to learn and share more on that topic.
Members 3shiftgtr Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Was it Earl Nightingale who said "You become what you think about all day long." The musician version of that is; "Listening to what you want hear comes thru in your playing." Which can be a double edged sword....I had to stop listening to Sco for a while cuz on certain tunes, his vibe was the only thing I could hear......not bad, but not good if you are trying to create your own voice....
Members meganutt7 Posted April 25, 2011 Author Members Posted April 25, 2011 I guess i could do a quick exposition here... it's a huge topic...The three most common things you will see pretty much EVERY jazz pianist doing at some stage are the following things:1. Rootless voicings2. Fourth voicings or "So What" voicings (variation wit hte third on top)3. ClustersNow, don't get me wrong, there is ALOT more than just THAT, but this is an essential part of leanring to think outside the box as a guitarist, where we are taught "grips" and specific ideas of what Dm should look like, for example...now, as for #1, it's basically as simple as playing a substitution, really, where you play a SPECIFIC structure for m7, 7, maj7 and m7b5. Let's do them all in C.For Cm7, you would play Eb, G, Bb, D (bottom to top...) this, obviously, spells an Ebmaj7 chord... So essentially it's substitution, but in reality, you need to hear it all over the root motion to have it make sense as the rootless voicing that you intend it to be. For C7, you would play Bb, D, E, A, which is essentially an incomplete Bbmaj7#11 voicing... if you do this in the context of a ii-V (Gm7 to C7) you would get: Bb, D, F, A going to Bb, D, E, A. Just one note moves (F, the seventh of the Gm7 becomes E, the 3rd of the C7). For a C Major7, you would play E, G, B, D or an Em7 chord... Pretty simple... Continue onward with this tertian ladder idea for m7b5, minMaj7, etc. etc. It works for all of them.. .Essentially you are building off of either the 3rd or 7th (you can invert the voicings I began on the 3rd to be more like the C7 voicing I demonstrated here).Then you have fourth voicings, which I particularly like, because their tonal pull is far less drastic and they fit over alot more root notes due to their structure and ambiguity... These voicings can be from 2 to 6 notes simultaneously on the guitar, but I find that 3-4 is usually best to convey the harmony and not be TOO muddy or dense sounding... Now, obviously you harmonize these diatonically according to whatever scale you are working with... Major, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, etc. So the 3 part fourth voicings have 3 inversions. Root position would give you a note, a fourth a bove it, then another fourth above that. First inversion: note, a fourth above and a second on top of that... Second inversion: Note, a second above that and a fourth above that. So if you're in D Dorian, for example... You have D, G, C as your fourths sturcture... You can voice id that way or invert to G, C, D or C, D, G. all cool sounds, for sure... Now practice moving them all diatonically up and down modally... THEN, practice moving through chord changes with these voicings and you will discover amazing things... You can use one or two SHAPESas the catalyst for playing over changes by mobving them no more than 1 or 2 frets away from the original chord... For instance, if you take the voicing I just brought up which CAN imply Dm of some variety (D,G,C).... I would interpert that as a Dm11, FYI... But if you take that SHAP (I would barre across the 5th fret from the A string to the G string) and then move id up a half step, you then get Eb, Ab, Db... Now relate that to a G7alt... You get a #5, b9 and b5, respectively. You just went up a half step and created a totally acceptable tonality for your G7. Then take it up another half step for Cmaj7 (or go back down a half step). If you go up another half step, you get: E,A,D, which would be the 3rd, 13th and 9th of a Cmaj7 chord. If you go back down a half step, you're back with D, G, C, which would be the 9th, 5th and root of the Cmaj7. The same type of thing can be done with pretty much all the different shapes/structures of fourth voicings. There are only 4 different shapes. 1 occurs 4 times, the other 3 just once... After a while, it becomes rather easy to see/hear. It's also a great way to generate interesting intervallic melodies... (please keep in mind I am writing a brief exposition here, not a book...)The third thing I mentioned was clusters... This is the hardest thing to do on guitar without using alternate tunings, partial capoes, harp harmonics or open strings... But it is SOOO worth it to get that dense lushness... In order to get into this, the two things I do are use harp harmonics, a la Lenny Breau, on the LOWER STRING of a two note diad (for instance) in context of a chord.. Let's say, for example, I want to play an Am9 voicing... I will barre my finger across the 5th fret and finger the 7th fret of the high E, only playing the top 4 strings (for now)... What I might do is pluck the D string with a harp harmonic 12 frets above (the note that sounds is a G) then I will play the note on the B string, an E, without the harp harmonic. Instead of the interval of a sixth, it will sounds as a third. THEN, when you get to the G and E strings, you have a C note and a B note, respectively. Pluck the C with a harp harmonic and the B without it and it creates, rather than a major seventh interval (which is what you are fingering) a minor second. Uber cluster!! Then, the open string thing comes into play....I do this thing now where I try to use open strings in EVERY VOICING I PLAY sometimes, through stretches on a tune... Let's use a tune that is not in a sharp key, as an example... Say "All the Things You Are"... let's take the first 6-7 chords... Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 - G7 - Cmaj7...So let's say I am using only three strings to generate partial vocings for these chords.. First I will seelct the string set... Let's use D, G and B... Now, of the three strings I selected, G could actually work over every chord in that progression.. let's use THAt as our example... So Fm7, Would play in frets from low string (D) to high string (B): 3, 0, 1 (so you essentially have an F sus.2 or Fm9 sound), then for Bbm7 - 3,0,2 which would give you a Bbm6 sort of a sound... Eb7 = 1,0,2 this is a straight up Shell voicing, root, 3rd and 7th... Abmaj7 = how about 6,0,4 which give you the root, 7th and 5th... a nice little minor second on the bottom... now Keep the same voicing for Dbmaj7, which would give you the 5th, #11 and 9th... tasty!!! Then for G7, how about 6,0,6, which would be a b9, root and b7... and for Cmaj7, let's make it colorful and play 4,0,3 which would be the #11, 5th and 9th... This is not only an open string thing in this case, but a common tone exercise as well.. .I don't necessarily always stick to this sort of idea throughout a tune... but it sure is helpful....I think this is a decent exposition... but in addition, I have a little lesson on chord construction and implementation on my youtube channel...www.youtube.com/meganutt7Also, check out some tunes on soundcloud: www.soundcloud.com/dannyhayounThe tunes at the top of the list are older, the ones at the end, the most recent... Enjoy...
Members polishpaul Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Awesome! Thanks.......a 'must try' for sure.
Members polishpaul Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Just watched that video..........one man's sloppiness is another man's astonishment ! Extremely creative, my verdict. It would be good to hear it with some backing...... Loved the Russian lyric - just the one word - "Yes" .
Members honeyiscool Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 I don't know what this will prove but here's one way I might play the first half of Autumn Leaves on my right hand. It's a popular song so it's a good example. You'll notice that I keep exactly the same note at the top (pianists do this a lot): C minor 7: G - Bb - D - FF dom 7: F# - A - C - FBb major 7: F - A - C - D - FEb major 7: F - G - Bb - D - FA dim 7: G - A - C - Eb - F D dom 7: F# - C - D - FG minor: A - Bb - D - FG minor: G - Bb - D - F The common notes between chords are often used to build rhythmic transitions.
Members JonnyPac Posted April 25, 2011 Members Posted April 25, 2011 Great stuff, Danny. Cool lessons and playing too. I came to the same conclusions by studying Bill Evans, McCoy, and the gang. I charted out grips of 4ths, SW, and simple clusters if you want to see 'em. Thanks again! http://carychiltonforums.yuku.com/topic/189/master/1/?page=1
Members jamesp Posted April 26, 2011 Members Posted April 26, 2011 Great thread! I've been listening nonstop since reading the OP. Thanks!
Members AXEL276 Posted April 27, 2011 Members Posted April 27, 2011 I could not agree more. I read a lot of post here that start off like, "I hate my playing, I'm in a rut, I'm not getting any better, what should I do, what should I practice, etc.....". If I respond I usually say something like "motivation, inspiration". I get it from listening. I have had my favorite musicians over the years and I will saturate myself, I mean listen to these guys every day, for a year! Yeah, no {censored}. Lately I've been thinking about country players like Brad Paisley. I've got him in the car, I'm stocking up on CD's. This is how you practice without the guitar in your hand. "Listening" is KEY! It's so simple, yet some people just don't get it.
Members meganutt7 Posted April 27, 2011 Author Members Posted April 27, 2011 Great stuff, Danny. Cool lessons and playing too. I came to the same conclusions by studying Bill Evans, McCoy, and the gang. I charted out grips of 4ths, SW, and simple clusters if you want to see 'em. Thanks again!http://carychiltonforums.yuku.com/topic/189/master/1/?page=1 Right on, Jonny... I don't know if you have seen it, but Scott Henderson put out a book a few years back for MI that is sort of similar to what your charts do, which is take a single shape and show you the most USES for it... also showing the degrees of the scale present in the voicing depending on the terminology of the voicing. This is how I have always loves to play/think.... How many different things can I do with ONE shape/idea/technique, etc. Kudos...
Members JonnyPac Posted April 27, 2011 Members Posted April 27, 2011 Wow. I'll look for it. Title? Thanks!
Members gennation Posted April 27, 2011 Members Posted April 27, 2011 I do a lot of my learning from nothing but listening. I've posted a number of times my concept, and examples, of "learning by osmosis" which is really just learning by repetitive listening, no transcription. It works. There comes a time within listening to something so many times that you can't help but stumble upon it on your instrument, and when you do it doesn't take but a couple of hours for visualization to kick in to get it to a pretty comprehensive level of something you've only listened and never played before. I go through these stages of listening and visualizing, then I stumble on it in my play (not through transcription) and will record it as a cleansing and never really go back to it again. I usually find something new to listen, and the process starts all over again. Just as important as listening is, visualization is the another huge thing. The two of those together help create you as your own player more than anything. They also help you with many styles of music as in not really needing to spend time on a style but only listening and visualizing. As long as your technique is with you, you'll find everything right in front of you...and it's been there all the time. Repetitive listening I think is first noticed or understood when you listen to an album over and over, or so many times in your life, or a period of your life that you start to hear the next song starting after the last one is finished. This is solely from repetitive listening. To get that level of hearing something while you're playing it, or listening to yourself, you need visualization. I can't tell how many times I play something not on where I am at but more on where I'm going. To me that's where the listening and visualization meet.
Members meganutt7 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Members Posted April 28, 2011 Wow. I'll look for it. Title?Thanks! I want to say it's called th "Jazz Guitar Chord System". I would just look it up on amazon if i were you. It's a small 20 pager or something, but conceptually a cool idea.
Members Gaetano Paul Posted April 28, 2011 Members Posted April 28, 2011 Still loving this thread, I am not a jazz, guy, have zero inspiration to be one, but all this applies just as much. I do admire the technical side of jazz though, and out of boredom I may master it one day
Members meganutt7 Posted April 28, 2011 Author Members Posted April 28, 2011 Still loving this thread, I am not a jazz, guy, have zero inspiration to be one, but all this applies just as much. I do admire the technical side of jazz though, and out of boredom I may master it one day I don't really know that jazz is more "technical" than other genres, necessarily, particularly from a guitarists' viewpoint. If you liste nto the lineage of jazz, guitarists are the cripples, compared to the fleet fingered/mouthed horn players and the lushness and complexity of pianists, the rhythmic invention of drummers and the seemingly foreign language engaged in by the walking bassists (the great ones). I think jazz is more a spirit of doing things and a theoretical woodshed for people.... If you listen to Greg Howe, for instance... He is not a jazz guitarist, but can hear in his playing that he is informed by jazz... If he were to play over ANY song with chord changes, he approaches it as a jazz player would, mentally.. His SOUND and vibe and techniques are more from a virtuoso rock/shred school, with all the legato and tapping/string skipping, etc.But having said that... It never hurts to liste nto ANYTHING that you dig... If you listen to a tune, you won't necessarily be able to play it note for note as soon as you pick up your guitar, but if you listen to ALOT OF BLUES, for example, you have the sound in your head of BLUES LICKS being played AUTHENTICALLY by BLUES GUYS.... This will make it easier for you to "hear" these things as you are improvising, so you don't sound liek a moronic wanker, but a competent blues guitarist...
Members Gaetano Paul Posted April 28, 2011 Members Posted April 28, 2011 Yeah, I am noticing recently that a student will mention and old song from the 90's, and I can just hear the guitar in my head, and after a few trys can play it right there on the spot, some of these songs I have not heard in years.
Members AXEL276 Posted May 3, 2011 Members Posted May 3, 2011 I have always been a Malmsteen fan since he came out in the 80's. I use to listen to him on and off but truthfully I had no clue what he was doing. I knew I liked it but it still no idea. I decided about 10 years ago to learn and I started by listening to him every day. Long story short, now when I listen to him I hear as well as visualize every single note. It doesn't even sound that fast. I recently have taken an interest in country music. I'm fascinated with the picking technique of these guys. When I first started listening to Brad Paisley it was a similar experience to listening to Yngwie for the first time. I knew I liked it but I could not hear the single notes or visualize. I have the CD's in the car and have been listing pretty much non-stop. This morning on the way to work it happened. All of a sudden it was like slow motion, I could hear the single notes, the phrases, lines, etc. It
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.