Members HutchTrickStar Posted May 31, 2011 Members Posted May 31, 2011 Started with a new teacher last week and he kept telling me to get my thumb off of the back of the neck. My first teacher taught the classical position with the thumb pointing towards the headstock. Who's wrong and should I run now from a 20 year experience teacher who's never heard of the classical position?
Mark Wein Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Started with a new teacher last week and he kept telling me to get my thumb off of the back of the neck. My first teacher taught the classical position with the thumb pointing towards the headstock.Who's wrong and should I run now from a 20 year experience teacher who's never heard of the classical position? If you're really not comfortable with him I'd say try a few other guys and see if he still makes sense. As far as thumb placement goes, I tend to move it around depending on my needs but it does need to support the bulf of the hand...check this out:
Members Steadfastly Posted May 31, 2011 Members Posted May 31, 2011 Started with a new teacher last week and he kept telling me to get my thumb off of the back of the neck. My first teacher taught the classical position with the thumb pointing towards the headstock.Who's wrong and should I run now from a 20 year experience teacher who's never heard of the classical position? Yes, I would find another teacher.
Members gennation Posted May 31, 2011 Members Posted May 31, 2011 You should be able to both, and switch between them without thinking. What type of music are you playing or want to play? If its classical then your stuck with your thumb behind the neck, period. If it's rock, blues, or jazz then let him work with you and show you the advantage of getting the thumb over the neck, to the point of actually using it to fret notes when needed. Unless you are only playing classical let him show you how the greats use that thumb.
Members JonR Posted May 31, 2011 Members Posted May 31, 2011 As mike says, thumb behind is correct for classical. However, it shouldn't point towards the headstock (if you mean parallel with the neck). It should point upwards - maybe slightly towards the headstock - with the thumb pad opposing the pressure of the middle fingertip. That's an optimum position, and it can move around a little. (Even in classical, one's left hand should not be rigidily fixed in any one position. Maybe he's just telling you to loosen up, rather than abandon what you've been taught?) The idea of thumb behind is that it gives the fingers maximum freedom of movement from any one (thumb) position, as well being the most efficient use of energy. However - steel-string guitars (esp electric), with their narrower necks, offer plenty of freedom of movement without the thumb needing to be behind. The thumb may be often used over the top, either for muting the 6th, fretting the 6th, or as an anchor for bending or vibrato. But rock players will still sometimes use their thumb behind, either for barre chords, or for some kinds of intricate scale or melodic playing where the fingers need a lot of movement. Personally, as a teacher, I encourage my beginners (mostly into rock or folk) to start with thumb behind. This is mainly to get them out of the habit of grasping the neck in the palm, which - although intuitive - is a very inhibiting position: makes most things hard to play if you're a beginner. As the hands begin to loosen up, and stretch improves, the thumb may creep up and over without inhibiting movement too much. (The exception would be anyone with small hands playing nylon-string: orthodox classical position is still advisable for them.) Most of the time, when you see pros playing with their thumb over, it's not because that's the BEST way, but because it's comfortable and they are flexible enough to get away with it. Of course, sometimes they are using it for specific techniques. IMO you need to ask your teacher to explain what he's telling you: to demonstrate the advantages (and disadvantages) of various thumb positions. Eg, if yours is wrong, why is it wrong? If he just expects you to do what he says - to trust his authority - without explanation, he is a bad teacher (even if he is a good player, nice guy, etc). Teachers are supposed to clarify, not confuse! But you may just be misunderstanding him.
Members HutchTrickStar Posted June 1, 2011 Author Members Posted June 1, 2011 Thanks for the replies. I can't see the video. Will check it out when I get home. "You should be able to both, and switch between them without thinking." That's basically what I do now. When I was shown the classical position, it opened up alot for me. I can reach farther with less stress on my wrist. It depends where on the fretboard I'm playing. I did notice my thumb wound up opposite my middle finger (this is what the teacher was saying I should always do) when I'm around the middle of the fretboard but if I try that near the top, it hurts. Bending the wrist forward is bad for me. It may be the way I've used my hands most over the years, life long mechanic & BMX/MTB rider, has alot to say about my comfort zone. That and a weird double jointed thumb. When I explained this to the teacher, he kinda dismissed it. We will see. I'm open to being wrong but not carpal tunnel. I like playing blues, rock and jazz but my loftiest goal is to be able to pick like Jerry Reed.
Members jeremy_green Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 Regardless if it is a misunderstanding it doesn't sound like you are happy ... you seem bothered so even if the advice is correct (which I can't assume) the delivery hit you the wrong way. Not a great sign.
Members 1001gear Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 There are instances when playing licks above the twelfth fret that placing your entire hand above the fretboard - a la cello - is the best method.
Members gennation Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 Regardless if it is a misunderstanding it doesn't sound like you are happy ... you seem bothered so even if the advice is correct (which I can't assume) the delivery hit you the wrong way. Not a great sign. Seems to me he might've only took the part that hit him the loudest. I'm sure the teacher didn't just say "put your thumb over the top" and then move onto somethign completely different, possibly he did but he must've added more to the statement, but maybe the OP didn't hear any of that. To the OP... In the end, your teacher in not wrong...what else did he explain to you about moving your thumb up from behind the neck? Was there more? The first thing I do with a new student is have them play something for me. I run into this all the time, guys playing blues, rock , and jazz with their thumb glued behind the neck. Their muting is horrible to say the least and they can't get the strum type grooves going like the legends do, because most of their muting comes from the right hand and not the left and right together. They want to play like SRV, Hendrix, Albert Lee, John Mayer, Joe Pass, etc, etc.. but their fundamentals are nothing like SRV, Hendrix, Albert Lee, John Mayer, Joe Pass, etc, etc... I show them the major piece they are missing, the thumb over the neck. It takes some of them a bit to get it but most pick up on it pretty quick (mainly because its so comfortable). And shortly their muting comes together a lot better fairly quickly, and they are able to do things with their right/picking hand they weren't doing before because their right hand isn't doing all the muting. Plus now they understand how to "strum lead lines" like the pro's do it. Just to prove to them I know what I'm talking about, I play familiar styles for them and show how it's used not only in muting but also how the thumb is used as part of familiar riffs, ala Pinball Wizard, Couldn't Stand the Weather, etc...and then I have them look at all the posters I have in music music studio (BB King, SRV, Joe Perry, Keith Richards, Jimi, Townshend, etc...) and in ever picture the thumb is over the neck. For reference...here's a thread we were all in a while back http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2576557 I cover a lot of advantages to having the thumb over the neck, I also provide a TON of pictures of legendary guitarist who all use the "thumb over the neck" technique. It also covers a lot of good information on muting, using the thumb, etc...as well as certain ways I help students clean up their muting within a couple of lessons, by muting all the strings THEN uncovering only the notes you want to sound.
Members gennation Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 There are instances when playing licks above the twelfth fret that placing your entire hand above the fretboard - a la cello - is the best method. Good point. All of these different hand positions need to happen naturally/second nature/on the fly without even thinking about it.
Members jeremy_green Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 My point was more to the mental state of the student or the teacher or both. For someone to go online and vent about stuff tells me there was a clash in styles or personalities etc. Not meaning he should dump the teacher based on this alone - just that it isn't a good sign.
Members gennation Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 My point was more to the mental state of the student or the teacher or both. For someone to go online and vent about stuff tells me there was a clash in styles or personalities etc. Not meaning he should dump the teacher based on this alone - just that it isn't a good sign. Well, (as I posted) I correct students thumb placement on the very first lesson if it needed. It's one of the first things I look for depending on the style the student is going for. Maybe there is a personality conflict or something, but from the info the OP gave, the teacher is on track with him. He should follow through and let the teacher help him with his thumb position, it will be a big benefit. If the teacher didn't bring it up, then I would for sure say there is a "teacher" issue. But from the details the OP provided, he's on the right track.
Members HutchTrickStar Posted June 1, 2011 Author Members Posted June 1, 2011 "To the OP... In the end, your teacher in not wrong...what else did he explain to you about moving your thumb up from behind the neck? Was there more?" He didn't explain why. I'll try to put in a nutshell just what alarmed me enough to ask the world. Me: Called him on a strong recommendation from a friend. "I've been playing for over a year and haven't had lessons in months. The 7 major modes is what I last learned but don't know when or why to use them. I want to learn in notation, not tab." Him: Shows up with Alfred's basic guitar method 1 and starts reading it to me. (found odd but if this was his way of getting a feel for where I am, I was going along) Never asked me to play anything. (To me, this would be thee most important thing in any first lesson) Didn't ask any questions about goals or what I'm looking to learn. (When I volunteered either, it was met with "You called the right guy") It just struck me as all wrong, almost the entire lesson. I have another one today so my concerns willbe addressed with the teacher. I don't want to seem like a harsh judge. Just the opposite, he may just have a strange way to me. My last teacher was awesome, but still owes me lessons and the return of a borrowed phone. I can only speculate why he doesn't return calls or emails. I honestly don't expect to find another teacher as good.
Mark Wein Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 "To the OP...In the end, your teacher in not wrong...what else did he explain to you about moving your thumb up from behind the neck? Was there more?"He didn't explain why. I'll try to put in a nutshell just what alarmed me enough to ask the world.Me: Called him on a strong recommendation from a friend. "I've been playing for over a year and haven't had lessons in months. The 7 major modes is what I last learned but don't know when or why to use them. I want to learn in notation, not tab."Him: Shows up with Alfred's basic guitar method 1 and starts reading it to me. (found odd but if this was his way of getting a feel for where I am, I was going along) Never asked me to play anything. (To me, this would be thee most important thing in any first lesson) Didn't ask any questions about goals or what I'm looking to learn. (When I volunteered either, it was met with "You called the right guy")It just struck me as all wrong, almost the entire lesson. I have another one today so my concerns willbe addressed with the teacher. I don't want to seem like a harsh judge. Just the opposite, he may just have a strange way to me. My last teacher was awesome, but still owes me lessons and the return of a borrowed phone. I can only speculate why he doesn't return calls or emails. I honestly don't expect to find another teacher as good. I would shop around for another teacher if thats how it went down. I'm sure there are a handful of good ones at least in your town.
Members gennation Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 "To the OP...In the end, your teacher in not wrong...what else did he explain to you about moving your thumb up from behind the neck? Was there more?"He didn't explain why. I'll try to put in a nutshell just what alarmed me enough to ask the world.Me: Called him on a strong recommendation from a friend. "I've been playing for over a year and haven't had lessons in months. The 7 major modes is what I last learned but don't know when or why to use them. I want to learn in notation, not tab."Him: Shows up with Alfred's basic guitar method 1 and starts reading it to me. (found odd but if this was his way of getting a feel for where I am, I was going along) Never asked me to play anything. (To me, this would be thee most important thing in any first lesson) Didn't ask any questions about goals or what I'm looking to learn. (When I volunteered either, it was met with "You called the right guy")It just struck me as all wrong, almost the entire lesson. I have another one today so my concerns willbe addressed with the teacher. I don't want to seem like a harsh judge. Just the opposite, he may just have a strange way to me. My last teacher was awesome, but still owes me lessons and the return of a borrowed phone. I can only speculate why he doesn't return calls or emails. I honestly don't expect to find another teacher as good. So there was more than just the thumb situation. Go by your instincts for sure. But definitely pursue the thumb over the top thing, you won't be sorry.
Members JonR Posted June 1, 2011 Members Posted June 1, 2011 "To the OP...In the end, your teacher in not wrong...what else did he explain to you about moving your thumb up from behind the neck? Was there more?"He didn't explain why. I'll try to put in a nutshell just what alarmed me enough to ask the world.Me: Called him on a strong recommendation from a friend. "I've been playing for over a year and haven't had lessons in months. The 7 major modes is what I last learned but don't know when or why to use them. I want to learn in notation, not tab."Him: Shows up with Alfred's basic guitar method 1 and starts reading it to me. (found odd but if this was his way of getting a feel for where I am, I was going along) Never asked me to play anything. (To me, this would be thee most important thing in any first lesson) Didn't ask any questions about goals or what I'm looking to learn. (When I volunteered either, it was met with "You called the right guy")It just struck me as all wrong, almost the entire lesson. I have another one today so my concerns willbe addressed with the teacher. I don't want to seem like a harsh judge. Just the opposite, he may just have a strange way to me. My last teacher was awesome, but still owes me lessons and the return of a borrowed phone. I can only speculate why he doesn't return calls or emails. I honestly don't expect to find another teacher as good.Definitely sounds like a lot is wrong. I suggest:1. Ask your friend what was so great about him. (Do his lessons get better?)2. Give him (teacher) one more chance. Maybe he's just quirky, or testing you out. But on the face of it, I agree, he doesn't sound like a good teacher. A first lesson should always include the things you were expecting: questions about your goals, listening to you play, etc.
Members HutchTrickStar Posted June 1, 2011 Author Members Posted June 1, 2011 After talking to him, it was pretty obvious that he misunderstood just about everything I told him. I forgot to mention that he wanted me to stop alternate picking and 'keep it simple' by just picking down. I worked hard to develop that style after just picking down for the first 4 months. Good enough to get compliments from other musicians whom I've been lucky enough to have opportunity to play with. Thank you all for having this discussion and sharing. Sensable bunch, you are. I have a really good idea of where I want to go now. I need to learn how to apply the theory. Learn a song, how it's built, disect it, how you could modify it. How 2 songs can be so similiar but sound so different. The friend who recommended him was in a band with him. I don't want to say he's not a good teacher, just not for me.
Members jeremy_green Posted June 2, 2011 Members Posted June 2, 2011 I don't want to say he's not a good teacher, just not for me. This is USUALLY the case.
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