Members BeerBaron Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 I have been playing for almost 6 years now. I have learned about 10-12 full songs and I have fun fooling around and learning new things. The only thing I never touched on back in the day, was scales. I mainly play rock/hard rock and some metal. I guess I should have learned the scales I needed to when I was first starting out. But no harm, no foul really. My main influences in music is a lot of rock like AC/DC, Van Halen, Guns N' Roses, Judas Priest and ect ect. I also like blues like SRV, Muddy Waters and John lee Hooker. I am not looking to be a scale god by any means at all. The style of music I like to play is what I listed above. I would just like to know, which scales would be vital to being able to expand my knowledge of the guitar and further my enjoyment of playing the guitar. I read that a lot of the music I listen to pertains the the Minor/major pentatonic and blues scales. But I just wanted to make sure and get some musicians thoughts on what a beginner scale learner should learner as the stepping stones. ThanksDaniel
Members GreenAsJade Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 You read correctly. I think it's as simple as that! The major and the minor are basically the same, and the blues scale is hardly different. So learn them, when you feel ready. GaJ
Members JonR Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 I read that a lot of the music I listen to pertains the the Minor/major pentatonic and blues scales. But I just wanted to make sure and get some musicians thoughts on what a beginner scale learner should learner as the stepping stones. ThanksDanielYes, major and minor pent as GaJ says. You should find - given your experience - that you've been playing them already (at least in part), just not thinking of it as "scales".All the riffs you know will likely be based on minor or major pent, or some combination (maybe with a blues scale b5 thrown in).(Take "Sunshine of Your Love" - that riff is wholly blues scale, from the D and G chord roots. The quick little descending fill at the beginning of "Back in Black"? E minor pent. etc.)The important thing with learning scales (as with any theory or technique) is to be able to link it with songs, so make sure you do that. Look at the songs you already know and ask yourself "what scale is being used here?"But also remember that - for the purposes of improvisation - the scale is a deep level knowledge (at the foundations of a song). You may not have to go that deep, and you can usually improvise well from chords with no awareness of the underlying scale.
Members stomias Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 Learn the major scale. Pentatonics and blues scales are great but the leading tone (7th) and 4th are really important and colorful melodic devices contained in the major scale. It is also the building block of western harmony. Mixdown.mp3 - 720.61 KB
Members polishpaul Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 Opinions vary, but some see all scales as direct descendants of the major, so the advice to work on this first makes sense to me. For example, the minor pentatonic scale is a major scale without the second and sixth notes. The major pentatonic is a major scale minus the fourth and seventh notes. In the long run then, a change of scale can involve simply throwing a single note into the mix. Loads of good stuff in the Lesson Loft archive, via "search". Gennation and JonR, amongst others, have inputted a lot which has helped me no end. Gennation has a website of his own which would probably help you. And JonnyPac for the jazz angle on scales. Worth looking at jazz guitar theory, I think, even if you don't play it at the moment. Have a look at the melodic minor scale and its modes.......perhaps not a beginner's usual first move, but this page may help you see how it all works: http://www.jazz-music-makers.com/melodic-minor-scale.html The melodic minor scale? It's a major scale with a flatted third. Mean stuff, the major scale! You didn't write how much theory you know. If you don't understand the terminology on that page, come back here with a question about "stacked thirds", perhaps.
Members mosiddiqi Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 Maybe controversial..but just based on my experience...I grew up liking exactly the same sort of music as the OP and found the Major scale to be a complete waste of time at that point in my learning...because I didn't know that I could play, say, just 4 or 5 notes from the scale. The reason that the pentatonics are so powerful is that the whole scale pretty much always sounds useful in a rock/metal context especially. Play the Major scale..it simply doesn't ...play the Pentatonics..and right away you're in land. So, at this point in the OP's learning curve, I'm guessing that focusing on the pentatonic/blues scales will bring the most benefit.
Members polishpaul Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 ^^^....only controversial if one disagrees . Also from the OP: "I would just like to know, which scales would be vital to being able to expand my knowledge of the guitar and further my enjoyment of playing the guitar.....". JonR pointed out that BeerBaron has probably been playing pentatonics just by ear and instinct. So he could start looking at those from the theory viewpoint, and then meander elsewhere from that point. Scale theory, to me, goes round and round, so anywhere is a good start point. What I didn't understand in one area often became clear in another later on. I just kept shooting around until it all clicked. (When I say "all", I mean "all what I now know", and not "everything in music theory", unfortunately ).
Members polishpaul Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 Also important is how to study....... I went on a theory binge all over the web last winter to soak up as much as I could. But I didn't play everything I studied, as I studied it. I'm doing that now. My fingers are up to speed for doing that, and I can figure stuff out from notation more quickly now. I think a better plan would be to play every example you see, as you go so to speak. What I'm doing at the moment is recording a chord vamp and then trying out the notes of various scales over it. That way I work out what I like. Then I bring in notes that are not in a given scale, and see how they sound, and whether I can somehow make them "fit". If a note "fits", I'll try to figure out which other scale (or scales) would give me that note. This evening's project is "major/minor" hybrid scales in B. I've discovered I like the sound of these. I know that Bm is the relative minor of D major, so the C and F notes are sharped. But if I sharp the A as well, I get a whole new feel. So I'm trying various melodies with a B minor scale with a sharped A (from the B major scale). Later I will start working out if this scale has a name, or if it is just a B minor scale with a sharp A, that I just happen to like in the context of what I'm playing. All this doubles as a practical fingering exercise. I'm totally involved, mentally and physically, so I remember stuff better.
Members polishpaul Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 From that we can move on to a C minor blues, incorporating C and F melodic minor, C Dorian, C Blues and a tad of C Lydian Dominant: [video=youtube;-mkaNabWI18]
Members polishpaul Posted September 10, 2011 Members Posted September 10, 2011 Some reading, with a tabbed/notated example with audio (effectively a backing track, with rhythm guitar on one channel and lead on the other): http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Jan/Improvising_for_Stronger_Blues_Lines.aspx I think this is pretty good. Scroll down below the end of the article for more info in "comments". Check Wayne's comment of 01/13/2009, in which he clarifies a typo in the tab/notation example.........the F# Blues symbol should be a triangle, not a diamond.
Members BydoEmpire Posted September 11, 2011 Members Posted September 11, 2011 Learn the major scale. Pentatonics and blues scales are great but the leading tone (7th) and 4th are really important and colorful melodic devices contained in the major scale. It is also the building block of western harmony.Mixdown.mp3 - 720.61 KBGotta agree here. Also realize that once you get the major scale pattern down, you also get all of its modes - mixolydian, natural minor and dorian modes are all over blues and rock. You still need to apply it to really learn it, though, so if the music you're playing doesn't feature the major scale then start with dorian or something. They're all the same patterns so once you get your fingers around one you'll be in good shape for learning more.
Members wrathfuldeity Posted September 11, 2011 Members Posted September 11, 2011 Also for learning major scale first because you will get the all the other scales under fingers and in your ear. Then its an easy transition to the pentatonic and blues and your fingers and ear will have a reference point. Btw I think its fine to play a major over blues, but what do I know.
Members mcmurray Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 Natural minor. And you haven't learnt it until you can play back a simple minor lick by ear in any position with no mistakes. Make this your goal.
Members gennation Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 I have been playing for almost 6 years now. I have learned about 10-12 full songs and I have fun fooling around and learning new things. The only thing I never touched on back in the day, was scales.I mainly play rock/hard rock and some metal. I guess I should have learned the scales I needed to when I was first starting out. But no harm, no foul really.My main influences in music is a lot of rock like AC/DC, Van Halen, Guns N' Roses, Judas Priest and ect ect. I also like blues like SRV, Muddy Waters and John lee Hooker. I am not looking to be a scale god by any means at all. The style of music I like to play is what I listed above. I would just like to know, which scales would be vital to being able to expand my knowledge of the guitar and further my enjoyment of playing the guitar.I read that a lot of the music I listen to pertains the the Minor/major pentatonic and blues scales. But I just wanted to make sure and get some musicians thoughts on what a beginner scale learner should learner as the stepping stones. ThanksDaniel To the OP... Knowing your scales does not force you into being a scale guy, unless you don't know how things fit together. For the style of music you've been playing a lot of people learn the Minor Pentatonic scale, or the Blues scale as the "end all" type scale. As you use it you know it covers a lot but you also realize there is something missing with it and you wonder how people get the sounds they do out of that one scale, when you necessarily aren't/can't. The issue is that a lot of times you are using a Minor type scale over Major chords and not paying attention the Major sounds, but only the Minor type scale. The key thing to learn for playing over the music you are into is how to use the Blues scale and the Major Pentatonic scale together (from the same Root) as one scale to create a more "full-figured" sound. So let's say we are playing on a G chord (in rock and blues music this would likely be a G7 chord) you would overlap G Blues and G Major Pent into one scale... G A Bb B C Db D E F G (that's 9 notes, only 3 notes away from using a full chromatic scale!) You can think of this as one continuous/linear scale if you want but it's life/application used that way will peter out much like the Minor Pent scale has for you. Instead, think of it as one scale that has TWO applicable SOUNDS in it. The Blues scale played over a Major chord gives you tension, it sounds gritty, meaty, and dirty. But the Major Pent sounds more relaxed against Major chord. This relaxed sound is great for starting and ending phrases while the tension sounds great in between the beginning and end of phrases. If you used the Major Pent scale all the time it would peter out just like using the Blues scale all the time. The key is to use the two sounds together. This is what you're favorite players are doing. So, if you just thought of these notes as one linear scale, you'd miss the musical elements within it...or the two usable SOUNDS, essentially "tension and release". Many many players never learn these two aspects because one scale doesn't make them all visible. Your favorite players know how to use those two scales together to create great RnR solo. I have a tutorial that can turn you onto the two sounds in this scale and how almost every great guitarist uses them together to create their killer licks. You'll recognize the sounds of it almost instantly. The tutorial will walk you from very basic sound concepts to some pretty deep ideas using it. And, it will also show you how to add in those 3 remaining notes and how to think musically using all 12 notes as opposed to "this scale and that scale"! The tutorial is here: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm READ the Introduction, I'm sure it will hit home a little if not a lot. Then work through over 50 examples of how these two scales work together to create endless music and phrases. You'll also see that this concept is commonly used in many styles of music from rock, blues, jazz, country, fusion, etc, etc...the tutorial covers all of it. There are straight up examples in the styles of Jimmy Page, SRV, Vai, Alvin Lee, Hendrix, Mclaughlin, Glenn Miller, Albert Lee, Steve Morse, etc, etc...let's just say there's a TON of stuff in those lessons you'll want to know. The examples use audio, tab, fretboard diagrams, explanation, etc...where needed. It's all completely free, no ads or anything...just must-know (if not vital) material for the style of music you're looking to play. Good luck!
Members polishpaul Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 Crazy! From Mike's post just gone: "The Blues scale played over a Major chord gives you tension, it sounds gritty, meaty, and dirty. But the Major Pent sounds more relaxed against Major chord. This relaxed sound is great for starting and ending phrases while the tension sounds great in between the beginning and end of phrases. If you used the Major Pent scale all the time it would peter out just like using the Blues scale all the time." This is so obviously so fundamentally important..........but I've never read that anywhere! Thanks for the tip!
Members gennation Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 Crazy! From Mike's post just gone:"The Blues scale played over a Major chord gives you tension, it sounds gritty, meaty, and dirty. But the Major Pent sounds more relaxed against Major chord. This relaxed sound is great for starting and ending phrases while the tension sounds great in between the beginning and end of phrases. If you used the Major Pent scale all the time it would peter out just like using the Blues scale all the time."This is so obviously so fundamentally important..........but I've never read that anywhere!Thanks for the tip! No problem. Another key thing is looking at the scales as one you'll see the differences as well as the common tones between the scales. Question Paul, Have you ever used those lessons I posted the too?
Members polishpaul Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 Cheers, Mike! I'm going to bear this sentence in particular in mind from now on when I listen to solos:"This relaxed sound is great for starting and ending phrases while the tension sounds great in between the beginning and end of phrases." It will be my starting point for my more serious studies.
Members gennation Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 Cheers, Mike! I'm going to bear this sentence in particular in mind from now on when I listen to solos: "This relaxed sound is great for starting and ending phrases while the tension sounds great in between the beginning and end of phrases." It will be my starting point for my more serious studies. Paul, have you ever check those lessons out that I posted? It is a serious study...if you're up for one...probably the study you're looking for directly related to that "starting point". If you read the Introduction and work through the examples in order it can change you're playing...dare I say...forever (yes, I do). I don't know why this basic concept, which is in almost everything we hear in music, isn't taught by guitarists to guitarist as opposed to just a Blues scale. The use of Major and Minor sounds in music is the heart of everything...and using these two basic scales this way is at the heart of some of the greatest players ammo box. Definitely check those lessons out if you haven't. There's gold in them hills
Members polishpaul Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 Mike.....I've got them all filed, for my personal use. I had a go at them a few months back, but I was still too far off the mark then to get the most from them. At the moment I'm going through my huge archive to dig out stuff I wasn't ready for first time round, and those lessons are probably top of the list. I remember working on one of the licks, and it clicked with me how long they look in notation, but are played so fast it can be hard to figure out all the notes on a casual listen. That was an eye-opener. I'm sure I've already posted a "thank you" for them. You'd posted that a player would be playing hot licks in no time, and I came in to say that it was true. To anyone who hasn't checked them out...............do yourself a favour: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm
Members dvuksanovich Posted September 12, 2011 Members Posted September 12, 2011 As you learn your scales, try to study the songs you play (and some new ones too) to figure out which notes of the scale are played against which chords by your favorite players. This will help you to shorten or avoid that awkward stage that many of us go through where we're learning scales and suddenly everything we play just sounds like a scale.
Members polishpaul Posted September 13, 2011 Members Posted September 13, 2011 Quoting myself, from a few days ago: This evening's project is "major/minor" hybrid scales in B. I've discovered I like the sound of these. I know that Bm is the relative minor of D major, so the C and F notes are sharped. But if I sharp the A as well, I get a whole new feel. So I'm trying various melodies with a B minor scale with a sharped A (from the B major scale). Later I will start working out if this scale has a name, or if it is just a B minor scale with a sharp A, that I just happen to like in the context of what I'm playing. It's B harmonic minor! The raised seventh makes it that. So I listened, worked out what I liked, then thought about it. No further effort required! I will never forget the harmonic minor scale now. My exploration started with listening to what I was playing. Not looking at a book or a video, hoping to find someone who would tell me. I think it's a much better way to go about it.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.