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Posted

I have been a guitarist for 34 years and have recently started playing bass also.

I am a bit ashamed of myself for even having to ask these questions, as you would think I would understand this better by now.

Especially considering that I was a guitar major in college and actually made A's and B's in two years of university music theory! (15 years ago, but still).

I have some very serious gaps between what I know and what I can do, and what I don't understand and therefore can't do. I know where I want to get to but don't know the best, most efficient way to train myself to get from point A (where I am now) to point B (where I want to be). My thinking is that someone else here might be able to cut through my confusion and help me understand how to fill in these gaps quicker...

 

Problem is that I am so confused that I'm not even sure my questions are going to be ... worded right ...

All I know is that I can play and even improvise pretty well but not good enough to do it in performance. It hasn't improved in 20years because I never did understand or practice it, it is all by ear and muscle memory, and if I were on stage doing it I'd surely be soloing and then go off the track pretty badly, without the theory behind it, I haven't been able to get that brain to hand coordination that good players have, where you hear a note and your fingers know what to do ...

 

Ok, Here's the deal. (You can skip this "WHAT I KNOW" section and go to "WHAT I DON"T KNOW" section if you like.)

 

WHAT I KNOW

I'm a pretty decently accomplished performing musician.

I know and can perform 600+ tunes. Rhythm guitar and some intricate stuff but mostly song form, not a lead player.

I know how to read standard notation.

I know how to construct all kinds of chords, and understand how to construct major and minor scales, and know how to solo a bit using those scales and some pentatonic boxes. I learned a little about modes and how they are just the major scale constructed starting on different degrees of the scale. I learned a little about the circle of fifths, I understand how you can go up by fifths (or fourths, the opposite way). I understand that there are relative minor keys, and that C major uses the same notes as a natural minor, and I know there are two other forms of minor scales (harmonic and melodic) and I know how to construct them.

 

WHAT I DONT KNOW (and want advice on how to grasp)

(AND the reason I want to know this now especially is that I want to not just memorize and play tunes on the guitar, I want to be able to solo, and obviously with taking up the bass, I really need to understand where I am at all times. I don't want to just memorize bass lines to specific tunes, I want to know where I am when playing so when I screw up I am not left out there twisting in the wind so to speak. I know you all know what I mean. I don't want to be the bass player who just memorizes the specific part - I want to really be able to play ... )

 

1 - I don't know my fretboard as well as I should, as a longtime guitarist I am pretty solid on the lowest two strings as I have formed bar chords with them forever, so I am drilling myself on that. I kind of know how to teach this to myself, need more help with the following ...

 

2 - I don't understand how many different pentatonic combinations are generally used

 

3 - I don't understand which ones fit over which keys, why minor pentatonic scales seem to fit over blues in major keys, why there seem to be several that you can use - is it because there is a major pentatonic scale that works over a certain major key, and then the pentatonic scale that is constructed on that keys' relative minore scale - fits - and gives it that "blue" sound? Why when you switch to the 4 or 5 chords, do some not work that worked over the 1 chord, for example?

 

4 - Is there some kind of formula for what passing tones work well? Like, I always hear 4 to 4# to 5, like in the key of C major, you hear F# between F and G a lot. You also hear 6#, like 6 to 6# to 7 to 8/1 - meaning you hear a walk up like in the key of C, that would be A, A#, B C

 

Why the heck can't I understand this, and I don't know if I make sense the way I am asking it ...

 

5 - forget about understanding why there is any practical use to knowing the circle of fifths/fourths, or what "modes" are ... I have no concept of how that should be helping me, in any practical sense during playing ...

 

I'm feeling pretty clueless right about now - anybody know where to tell me to start?

 

Thanks...

 

OH and I am adding another specific question that I asked later in this thread - for those of you who might only read my initial post - answer me this -

 

WHY when I am soloing over an A major blues progression, does a minor sound good over the 1 and 4 chords but not over the 5 chord?

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Posted

 

WHAT I DONT KNOW (and want advice on how to grasp)

(AND the reason I want to know this now especially is that I want to not just memorize and play tunes on the guitar, I want to be able to solo, and obviously with taking up the bass, I really need to understand where I am at all times. I don't want to just memorize bass lines to specific tunes, I want to know where I am when playing so when I screw up I am not left out there twisting in the wind so to speak. I know you all know what I mean. I don't want to be the bass player who just memorizes the specific part - I want to really be able to play ... )


1 - I don't know my fretboard as well as I should, as a longtime guitarist I am pretty solid on the lowest two strings as I have formed bar chords with them forever, so I am drilling myself on that. I kind of know how to teach this to myself, need more help with the following ...


2 - I don't understand how many different pentatonic combinations are generally used


3 - I don't understand which ones fit over which keys, why minor pentatonic scales seem to fit over blues in major keys, why there seem to be several that you can use - is it because there is a major pentatonic scale that works over a certain major key, and then the pentatonic scale that is constructed on that keys' relative minore scale - fits - and gives it that "blue" sound? Why when you switch to the 4 or 5 chords, do some not work that worked over the 1 chord, for example?


4 - Is there some kind of formula for what passing tones work well? Like, I always hear 4 to 4# to 5, like in the key of C major, you hear F# between F and G a lot. You also hear 6#, like 6 to 6# to 7 to 8/1 - meaning you hear a walk up like in the key of C, that would be A, A#, B C


Why the heck can't I understand this, and I don't know if I make sense the way I am asking it ...


5 - forget about understanding why there is any practical use to knowing the circle of fifths/fourths, or what "modes" are ... I have no concept of how that should be helping me, in any practical sense during playing ...


I'm feeling pretty clueless right about now - anybody know where to tell me to start?


Thanks...

 

 

First, I'd need to hear you play before I could give specific advice. Based on what you've said, it sounds like you might be missing the element of "trust" in your own playing. Please let me elaborate a little.

 

I've been playing guitar forever. More than 45 years. I know a lot about theory, and I can read music fluently. When I'm improvising, I seem to do better when I think about nothing other than "What story am I trying to tell? How do I want the audience to feel? How do I get as close as possible to that?"

 

For me, that process involves practicing techniques, fretboard knowledge, ear training, etc. But then when it's time to play, throw all caution to the wind and just go with whatever comes out.

 

It sounds easier to do than it really is. To do it well, I need to accept (and embrace) the possibility that what comes out will totally suck and be willing to do it anyway. More accurately, I work hard on NOT judging the quality of what comes out. Just trust it.

 

Learn your instrument. Learn everything about it. Get all that info ingrained so that it becomes second nature. Then when it's time to play, just play.

 

My point: If what I've said resonates with you, then you're more than 50% the way there already.

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Posted

Let me boil this down a little and see if I have it right: you want to go beyond basic box shape rock and blues soloing and learn how to properly solo over changes.

 

If so, I have some resources to recommend, but for starters, check out http://mattwarnockguitar.com

 

This site is dense in the sort of info you're looking for, and I highly recommend the study of jazz, since the soloing concepts are applicable to almost all other forms of music, from Willie Nelson to Testament.

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Posted

Yes it does make some sense to me. As I said, any improvising I can do is without thought. Muscle memory, instinct, all that. But there are gaps, because although I have a very well developed ear for whether or not I should go up by a half or whole step (meaning I don't have to know what key I am in, if I pick a note on one string I can go up and play whatever scale I hear in my head on that one string) it is the crossing string ear to brain to hand connection I don't have. meaning I can't pick a note on one string and go to the note I hear on an adjacent note with any certainty. Once I figure out, after a couple of possible wrong stabs, where that box or pattern lies, I can solo around in it. And once I get my bearings, do fine. Whether I am playing a major or minor or some pentatonic thing, I can solo nicely. Then sometimes the chord changes and a few of the notes don't work the same. And I can hear it, but it would be nice to know in my head, "ok, here comes the 5 chord, so even tho this is a, A major blues progression, I have been playing some kind of minor form over the 1 and the 4 chord and that's not going to work over the 5 chord." Oh and it would be nice to know WHY.

 

There is another question for you all. WHY when I am soloing over an A major blues progression, does A minor sound good over the 1 and 4 chords but not over the 5 chord?

Because in A major, the 1,4, and 5 chords are all major?

So why can I play an A minor scale or A minor sounding pentatonic over the 1 and 4 chord ... but not over the 5 chord?

 

Does all this makes sense?

Re; my bearings - Yes, I know where the four and five lie in relation to each other on adjacent strings. I know that if I am in the key of C, that I can find the root on the 3rd fret of the 5th string, and then if I want to find the 4 note I can either cross to the lower string and go back two frets, or move up to the higher string, same fret. I know it in my mind but my ear doesn't hear it, much less hear where the more complicated intervals are.

 

Maybe I am thinking too hard. I do need to train my ear to hear the intervals in relation to crossing strings. That's a definite. But I thought there might be some shortcut to getting there by knowing theory.

Maybe I should sing solfege and practice going to the right notes?

I just feel like I am reinventing the wheel here.

I am willing to practice bass two hours a day. If I practice smart, I'll progress nicely in a year. If I bang around, I'll be wasting a lot of time.

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Posted

 

4 - Is there some kind of formula for what passing tones work well? Like, I always hear 4 to 4# to 5, like in the key of C major, you hear F# between F and G a lot. You also hear 6#, like 6 to 6# to 7 to 8/1 - meaning you hear a walk up like in the key of C, that would be A, A#, B C

 

 

I don't know of a formula, other than that the #4 is most commonly used as it is part of the blues scale. The others will almost always sound o.k. leading into a scale tone.

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Posted

 

I don't know of a formula, other than that the #4 is most commonly used as it is part of the blues scale. The others will almost always sound o.k. leading into a scale tone.

 

 

What blues scale?

For example, if you are saying it is a "C" blues scale, how are you constructing it in relation to C?

And what about an A minor blues scale. How would that be constructed?

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Posted

In your blues example, the E(V) chord is typically dominant, meaning you would play an E mixolydian scale over this. Happily, E mixolydian is the same as A major (Ionian).

 

So really, definitely study how to solo ever changes. :idea:

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Posted

2 - I don't understand how many different pentatonic combinations are generally used


3 - I don't understand which ones fit over which keys, why minor pentatonic scales seem to fit over blues in major keys, why there seem to be several that you can use - is it because there is a major pentatonic scale that works over a certain major key, and then the pentatonic scale that is constructed on that keys' relative minore scale - fits - and gives it that "blue" sound? Why when you switch to the 4 or 5 chords, do some not work that worked over the 1 chord, for example?

 

 

I'll take a stab at this. Using C as the key my major pentatonic = C(1) D(2) E(3) G(5) A(6) and my minor = C(1) Eb(b3) F(4) G(5) Bb(b7)

 

Now a three chord song is a rather generic thing to begin with because it's only the 1, 4 &5 chords which are common to major and minor but looking a little deeper a three chord blues song is really more in the mixolydian (the 4th degree) mode which means the dominant 7th is king. If a harmonica player jumps up to jam with you and you tell him this is a blues song in C he'll grab an F major harp.

 

So our three chord blues song in C is really most suited to the notes of the F major scale which = F G A Bb C D E.

Now comparing that to our C minor and C major pentatonic scales we see all the same notes! The only one that stands out as being different is the Eb but it's cool because it's the b7 of F, our 4 chord.

 

So this gives me a lot of neck space to explore as I can use the C minor pentatonic scale starting positioned at the 8th fret, the C major pentatonic starting positioned at the 5th fret or the F major scale starting positioned on the 10th fret.

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Posted

I'll let far more experienced people than me answer the tech part of this but a few comment from my own perspective. I think using the word rule in a music context is a bad start. Sure there are rules of thumb etc but I think it is far better to concentrate on what sounds, not right, but appropriate. I spend my working life with science and engineering and it is full of rules, when I pick up the guitar the last thing I want to do is apply rules.

 

Another poster said it too, trust yourself! That was my biggest breakthrough. Play along with the radio or TV and go for it, soon you will notice you avoid notes that are not very good. You are only one fret away from a better note.

 

Cheers

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Posted

There are just so many questions here... and I don't have the time right this second to answer them all... so let me at least address your blues question and maybe help by telling you what helped me.

 

First - a blues progression is actually a theoretical mess. 3 chords ALL DOMINANT.... that is theoretically as "wrong" as it gets... but it works.

 

By now with your past experience you should know that the fifth note of the major scale is called the dominant right? This should give you a hint. When you see a dominant chord it is actually the 5 chord of another key... So a 12 bar is A

A7 (5 of D)

D7 (5 of G)

E7 (5 of A)

 

Now, you can use any of those scales over those chords, but the common approach is to just play Amin over the whole shooting match... but you are right over the V chord it sounds wonky. Likely because of the chord's Major 7th (G#) against the A of the Amin form. The easy way. Play each note of the chord against each note of the pent scale and you will quickly find the crud.

 

Many people (as suggested above) choose Mixolydian over dominants - why? Because Mixolydian is ... you guessed it ... the 5th mode...

 

You see a pattern?

Dominant 5th chord

Mixolydian - 5th mode?

 

The Mixolydian ONE chord is dominant.

 

Here is the thing - the chords you can use are all housed inside the scales. Take a major scale and look for familiar chord shapes.. This parent scale will work for all of those chord forms. The Dominant is so open ended because it appears in so many scale forms including the symmetrical ones (whole tone & diminished etc) Plus the melodic and harmonic minor shapes. Again write out these scales on paper. Go through them and write out the chord shapes you see.

 

I think you are like many players, you learned to play as much with your eyes as anything. Parroting and "Shapes" can get you pretty far but at some point you need to stop that {censored} and start really listening. Start thinking about what notes you are using and how the intervals work in relation to the root. Focus on arpeggios more than scales and use them as the basis for improv for a while. They represent your safe notes. Start completely resolved then work to add tensions as you grow confident.

 

Set up a loop like so:

 

| G / / / | D / / / | Amin / / / | D7 / / / |

 

Use ONLY Gmaj7 arp for G

Dmaj7 Arp for D

Amin7 Arp for Amin

D7 Arp. for D7

 

Play this ONLY in the first position until you have it. DO NOT LEAVE THIS POSITION

Then move to 3rd - stay until you have it - same ONLY in this spot of the neck

Then 5th, then 7th on and on.

 

Then change the chords and do it again. Use your ears and start to HEAR this stuff. Then and only then should you expand by adding other scale notes.

 

Gotta fly, hope that helps.

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Posted

"WHY when I am soloing over an A major blues progression, does a minor sound good over the 1 and 4 chords but not over the 5 chord? "
Which minor chord? If you mean playing Am over the I chord then only difference is C# to C. If you mean playing Am over the IV chord then there are 2 notes different . If you play Am over the V chord or E then there are no common tones. Its more dissonant .

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Posted

Thanks all. I can follow these points - I'll admit that it is painful - but I can work it out ;P

 

To Krack'N, I meant A minor, as in soloing in A minor, not playing a minor chord, or even THE A minor chord.

 

HAHA. Gets confusing when writing on the net - I am so used to using a small case a whenever I write out song charts I use "am" or "A" on

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Posted

 

There is another question for you all. WHY when I am soloing over an A major blues progression, does A minor sound good over the 1 and 4 chords but not over the 5 chord?

Because in A major, the 1,4, and 5 chords are all major?

So why can I play an A minor scale or A minor sounding pentatonic over the 1 and 4 chord ... but not over the 5 chord?

Look at the notes in the chords, and compare the notes in the scale:

 

A minor pentatonic = A C D E G

A chord = A C# E

D chord = D F# A

E chord = E G# B

So - putting it as simply as possible - you can see 2 out of the 3 notes in each of the first two chords are in the scale. Only 1 of 3 from the E chord is in the scale.

Moreover, two of the notes in the scale are a half-step above the other 2 chords tones in the E chord (A and C). These are the so-called jazz "avoid notes". (You get one avoid note on each of the other chords, so this is perhaps not too critical an issue.)

BTW, when we add the 7ths of the chords, all of those are in the scale: so then the A7 and D7 chords have 3 out of 4 notes present in the scale, while E has 2 out of 4.

 

However, things are a little more complicated than that. The main point about blues is that clash between the M3 of the tonic chord (C# in this case) and the b3 of the scale ©. So playing a C note over an A major chord is not a "wrong note", but part of the blues sound. (NB:, it's a half-step above a chord tone that creates an avoid note, not a half-step below.) Players will also bend that b3 up towards the M3 (maybe not all the way).

That also applies to the E chord, in that you can play a G natural over it and it won't sound too bad. But playing the A and C over it probably will. IOW, if you just play the D E and G from A minor pent on the E chord, it will probably sound fine. (And many soloists will do just that.)

 

The mixolydian strategy mentioned above is more of a "jazz" solution - since it fits the chords more closely (contains all 4 dom7 chord tones), and contans no blue notes. But it's also probably a better strategy for a bass solo in blues or rock than the minor pentatonic is. That's partly because bass tends to walk around the mixolydian scale of the chord anyway - and also because it's a little harder to bend notes on a bass (typically guitarists will bend the C up to C#, or the G up to G# on the E).

 

As a bass player you MUST know the arpeggios of all chords, all the way up the neck. This is - literally! - fundamental; not just for improvising, but for constructing good walking lines throughout a piece (in jazz and blues at least).

So - for an A7 chord - you should know the positions of all the A, C# E and G notes on the neck. Then, in improvising, all you really need to do is add a half-step below each of those, as "approach notes" (resolving straight up to the chord tones). That's enough to make the plain arpeggio more interesting and bluesy/jazzy. (No need to think in scales.)

 

If you don't yet know all your dom7 arpeggios: start learning! The great thing about bass (which doesn't apply to guitar) is that the fret patterns are consistent across all 4 strings (or all 5 or 6 if you have that many). So a pattern from a root on 6th string will be the same (on the higher strings) as a pattern from a root on 5th string.

IOW, you may find you don't need to learn all the note positions (to begin with), just the root positions on lower strings, and the chord arp shapes for the common chord types (triads for sure, with the optional addition of 6th and b7). So you can find an A7 arpeggio by knowing how to find an A, and then the pattern for a dom7 arp from there.

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Posted

.....following on from JonR........

 

I've been checking into Lesson Loft for a long while now, and what I've learned here is that arpeggios and passing notes is generally what it's all about - basically you have to know which notes you can land on and hold, and which notes you should use only fleetingly ie in passing. If you want a dissonance, hold a "wrong" note.

 

Further, it's important to remember that musicians don't have a lot of notes available - twelve only. So it's all about how you use them in the approach to and departure from any given target. Slides, trills, hammers, pulls, muted scrapes............the possibilities are immense.

 

I mention all this because I got stuck in that music-theory "which note?" trap, instead of experimenting more with the actual sonic possibilities and listening attentively. Gotta do both!

 

 

Another batch of great replies here......thanks all!

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Posted

 

WHY when I am soloing over an A major blues progression, does A minor sound good over the 1 and 4 chords but not over the 5 chord? Because in A major, the 1,4, and 5 chords are all major?

So why can I play an A minor scale or A minor sounding pentatonic over the 1 and 4 chord ... but not over the 5 chord?

 

 

If we're talking about blues, it doesn't really follow the same conventions that European classical music does. Most music theory methodologies tend to describe the latter.

 

In blues, you can play an A major chord and play/sing a b3 over it. Why? History.

 

Blues originated as African Folk tunes sung out in the cotton fields of the South. By the time people added guitar, no-one really thought about music theory "correctness." Slaves didn't have access to that info. So they went with what sounded good to their ears.

 

My point: using European terms to describe blues is like using cookbook terms to describe an engine overhaul.

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Posted
@ggm1960: Yeah, mixolydian does work for the most part over a 1-4-5 blues, although I would flat the 3rd to make it a Dorian minor during the 4 chord.



I probably occasionally do when I get wound up and going. :)

Although I took some music courses back in college, much of what I've learned about playing guitar (and even keyboards) has come from 25 years of magazine articles by guys like Jon Finn, Andy Aledort and numerous others.

$20 dollars a year can actually buy a lot of knowledge when it comes to this stuff.

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Posted

 

If we're talking about blues, it doesn't really follow the same conventions that European classical music does. Most music theory methodologies tend to describe the latter.


In blues, you can play an A major chord and play/sing a b3 over it. Why? History.


Blues originated as African Folk tunes sung out in the cotton fields of the South. By the time people added guitar, no-one really thought about music theory "correctness." Slaves didn't have access to that info. So they went with what sounded good to their ears.


My point: using European terms to describe blues is like using cookbook terms to describe an engine overhaul.

 

 

So true. I sympathize with the OP, though, because I too originally learned all my theory in college and at a conservatory studying classical music. In my case (and the OP's too, I'm guessing) it can help to relate what you're trying to learn to what you know already just to get your brain around it a bit. All that said, the cool thing about music is that you'll end up sounding like what you sound like because of where you came from musically. I personally love doing little classical sounding things here and there even in straight ahead rock songs... just because it's who I am and where I came from. If it's OK in blues to play a flat 3 over a major I chord, then it must also be OK to throw a bit of harmonic minor as well. Just do your thing and have fun with it.

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Posted

2 - I don't understand how many different pentatonic combinations are generally used


3 - I don't understand which ones fit over which keys, why minor pentatonic scales seem to fit over blues in major keys, why there seem to be several that you can use - is it because there is a major pentatonic scale that works over a certain major key, and then the pentatonic scale that is constructed on that keys' relative minore scale - fits - and gives it that "blue" sound? Why when you switch to the 4 or 5 chords, do some not work that worked over the 1 chord, for example?


WHY when I am soloing over an A major blues progression, does a minor sound good over the 1 and 4 chords but not over the 5 chord?

 

 

These questions are part of the same thing.

Sounds like your a bit unclear on the concept of "relative minor". The relative minor is always 3 frets down from your major or 1 chord. In your examples Am pentatonic is not very usable over an A major 1-4-5 progression. Here the relative minor or F#m pentatonic has many more common notes and fits well over the progression. You can also use the pentatonic of the 2 minor chord (or Bm pentatonic) and even tho the root is dissonant over the 1 chord the other notes fit quite well with the cadence. So when using the Bm penatonic you would use the E note for resolution over the A chord. When improvising scales you dont have to use (and sometimes shouldnt) every note! Same concept works in reverse. Ex .You have a F#m -Bm- C#m chord progression then playing A major is ok. For myself, I basically think in terms of major-minor and diminished scales and keep the names of the notes and chords running in the background of my mind while I play. I do use other scales sometimes but they are exceptions.

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