Jump to content
HAPPY NEW YEAR, TO ALL OUR HARMONY CENTRAL FORUMITES AND GUESTS!! ×

At my stage of life I really should know this, but...


Recommended Posts

  • Members
Posted

...where do Augmented chords fit in the grand scheme of things?

 

I've been revisiting my triad voicings and whilst practising various inversions, I realised I'd never bothered to really learn the forms for Diminished and Augmented triads.

 

So here's three questions for you:

 

The Diminished chords I understand, as they're the vii chord of the diatonic major scale, but diatonically do the Augmented chords just sit within the Harmonic Minor Scale, or do they crop up elsewhere?

 

Are chord progressions built from the Harmonic Minor Scale relatively common? Are there any other appropriate ways to use Augmented chords?

  • Members
Posted

I learned the practical application of Augmented chords in pop music at least from The Beatles (like so much else I learned!). Specifically, the last chord of the bridge in "From Me To You"..the intro chord to "Oh, Darling" come to mind.

 

That doesn't really answer your questions :lol:..but I'm a fan of hearing how things sound in context.

 

As far as harmonic minor progressions, I do believe that in a minor ii v i..the v is often changed to a v7 which is from the harmonic minor scale for a smoother resolve. So, in A minor, instead of Bmin7b5 Emin Amin(all diatonic to CMaj/Amin)..you'd have Bmin7b5 E7 Amin...which sounds smoother due to the G# to A move when changing from E7 to Am..

 

I think that's right, but one of our theory experts will sort it out I'm sure. Paging JonR!

  • Members
Posted

Let me tell you how I think of them, maybe it will help.

 

Before I do I should say diminished chords are cool man!!! If you play anything blues based they are exceptionally versatile. I use min7b5 (half diminished) version as a sub for a dominant chord. In Blues as you know all 3 chords are typically dominant so there is a HUGE place there for the diminished. Common sub is off the 3rd of the dom chord. So on a G7 you play Bmin7b5 on an A7 you use C#min7b5 - that type of thing.

 

Augmented chords - and diminished chords I think of as a function. What i mean is that they are non resolved in their state. You don't just hang on one of them very often. They have a leading sound.... they pull to another chord. A diminished chord wants to lead up a semitone to the major chord. It PULLS you towards it. Augmented chords PULL you down a 5th (so Caug pulls towards F). These are motion chords... connector chords if you will. The arpeggios work the same way. If you are soloing over a chord and the next chord is down a fifth, playing a augmented arpeggio on the last 2 beats can move you across to the new tonality in a slick way.

 

The thing is to really listen to them. Play the chord and listen to what your ear WANTS you to play next. I think that is the trip with them.

  • Members
Posted

Just to sum up how I see these two beasts:

 

There are TWO kinds of diminished chord: vii in a major key (m7b5) and vii in a minor key (dim7). (Nobody ever uses dim triads, not AFAIK ;) If they do, then they will be standing for one of these two, and it's important to know which.)

Both have a dominant function (rootless V9 chord in major key, rootless V7b9 in minor).

 

In minor keys - as mos and jeremy say - it's common to see m7b5s used as ii chords, because that's their place in the natural minor scale. So they have a subdominant function in minor. Dim7s, OTOH, always have a dominant function, and are common subs for dom7s in either minor or major keys (built from any tone of the dom7 other than the root).

 

Another use of a dim7 is a kind of flattened version of a major tonic: the "common tone diminished". IOW, you can resolve to a tonic from a dim7 on the same root, as well as from one rooted a half-step below (the V7 sub).

 

 

There are also two kinds of augmented chord, again differentiated by their 7th - which, as with diminished chords, is always implied even if not included.

The most common is the altered dominant (V7#5).

 

The kind with a maj7 appears as a passing chord in a minor key - it's the natural III chord in harmonic and melodic minor, but is not really used in that way - it's more like a maj7 version of the tonic. Eg, Cmaj7#5 would occur as a rootless Am(maj9), eg, in that common descent (as in Stairway to Heaven): Am - Cmaj7#5 - Am7 - Am6. (known as "CESH" - "contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony".)

Of course, a plain C+ triad is the same as E+, which is an altered V chord in A minor. But as E+ it would have a D (b7): that's the difference. E7 could have a b13 © along with B, but that's unusual. Generally the symbol "E7b13" implies the E altered scale, with no B (Bb instead).

 

IMO, the use of the symbol "7b13" is a way of dealing with the implication of "7#5" that there might be a 6th in between the #5 and b7 - which there isn't. A 7#5 chord - in jazz - would suggest either the altered scale or the wholetone scale, neither of which have a major 6th (ie no note in between the #5 and b7).

"7b13", of course, allows the possibility of a perfect 5th (and hence the harmonic or melodic minor scale), but the P5 would probably be omitted from the chord.

  • Members
Posted

Just to sum up how I see these two beasts:


There are TWO kinds of
diminished
chord: vii in a major key (m7b5) and vii in a minor key (dim7). (Nobody ever uses dim triads, not AFAIK
;)
If they do, then they will be standing for one of these two, and it's important to know which.)

Both have a
dominant
function (rootless V9 chord in major key, rootless V7b9 in minor).


In minor keys - as mos and jeremy say - it's common to see m7b5s used as ii chords, because that's their place in the natural minor scale. So they have a
subdominant
function in minor. Dim7s, OTOH, always have a dominant function, and are common subs for dom7s in either minor or major keys (built from any tone of the dom7 other than the root).


Another use of a dim7 is a kind of flattened version of a major tonic: the "common tone diminished". IOW, you can resolve to a tonic from a dim7 on the same root, as well as from one rooted a half-step below (the V7 sub).



There are also two kinds of
augmented
chord, again differentiated by their 7th - which, as with diminished chords, is always implied even if not included.

The most common is the altered dominant (V7#5).


The kind with a maj7 appears as a passing chord in a minor key - it's the natural III chord in harmonic and melodic minor, but is not really used in that way - it's more like a maj7 version of the tonic. Eg, Cmaj7#5 would occur as a rootless Am(maj9), eg, in that common descent (as in Stairway to Heaven): Am - Cmaj7#5 - Am7 - Am6. (known as "CESH" - "contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony".)

Of course, a plain C+ triad is the same as E+, which is an altered V chord in A minor. But as E+ it would have a D (b7): that's the difference. E7 could have a b13 (C) along with B, but that's unusual. Generally the symbol "E7b13" implies the E altered scale, with no B (Bb instead).


IMO, the use of the symbol "7b13" is a way of dealing with the implication of "7#5" that there might be a 6th in between the #5 and b7 - which there isn't. A 7#5 chord - in jazz - would suggest either the altered scale or the wholetone scale, neither of which have a major 6th (ie no note in between the #5 and b7).

"7b13", of course, allows the possibility of a perfect 5th (and hence the harmonic or melodic minor scale), but the P5 would probably be omitted from the chord.

 

 

Well.....

 

 

I've read a lot of interesting posts on music theory in my time, but...........

 

 

How on earth is it possible to have such a depth of knowledge of it and still function as a human being?

 

 

Stand aside Eric - JonR just might be..................

 

 

I have only a loose grip on this one so far, and will be studying it intensively, just on the off-chance that one fine day I'll be able to wrap my head around it.

 

 

Keep it coming, please, Jon. It's addictive :)!

 

 

Blimey!

  • Members
Posted

The Harmonic Minor scale contains 4 dim7 chords and 3 augmented chords. And the same 3 augmented chords are found in the Melodic Minor scale too. They all function as dominant chords in the Minor Key.

 

Try playing around with a Minor cadence of ||: Am | Am | E7 | E7 :||

 

The E7 is functioning as the dominant chord in the progression. Where you can sub it with G#dim7, Bdim7, Ddim7, and/or Fdim7...you can also sub it with G#aug, Caug, and/or Eaug.

 

Mixing and matching the dim7's and thd aug's subs over that dominant/E7 can create some amazing voice leading to the Im chord as well as some amazing, and beautiful, lines.

  • Members
Posted

The Harmonic Minor scale contains 4 dim7 chords and 3 augmented chords.

Just to be annoyingly pedantic :rolleyes:: strictly speaking it contains one of each: on the vii and III steps respectively.

But I know what you're getting at, of course. They are symmetrical chords, so any note in each one can be defined as the root. (The following is not supposed to inhibit the kind of freedom of application you're promoting!:) Only to go into more detail on the theoretical background, in case it helps or interests anyone.)

 

In A harmonic minor, the vii chord is G#dim7. That's enharmonic with (sounds the same as) Bdim7, Ddim7 and Fdim7. Strictly speaking - again - those three all come from different scales (C, Eb and Gb harmonic minor respectively - or F# harmonic minor if you call the last one E#dim7).

When - in key of A minor - you substitute E7 with Bdim7, Ddim7 or Fdim7 or G#dim7, it's all the same substitute chord: just different inversions of G#dim7. (The other names are not strictly correct.) Naturally the different inversions and shapes can inspire different phrases (which is your point), but they are all the same chord, just as an inversion of any other chord is the same chord.

 

However, the chord's symmetry - its 4 (differently spelled) enharmonic identities - means that the same chord can function in four different keys, because of course the four identities sound identical.

And in any case, when a jazz musician uses the WH dim scale on a dim7 chord (instead of harmonic minor), he is exploiting that ambiguity, because the dim scale has no root. *

We can nominate any of its 8 notes as a "root".

So we can use dim7 chords as "pivots" to smoothly modulate between 4 different keys (and they can be major or minor keys) a minor 3rd apart.

The other way we can put this is that there are only three different dim7 chords. They just each have 4 potential names. Likewise there are only 3 different diminished scales - each with a possible 8 different names.

 

The same applies to the augmented triad (though less so if we add a 7th to the chord). C+ = E+ = G#+: meaning we can modulate to either of two other keys.

The theoretical difference here is that in the harmonic and melodic minor scales, the aug chord is III, not V (I disagree there on a narrow point of theory, although you're quite right about sound and practice).

IOW, in A harmonic or melodic minor, the III chord is C-E-G#. We can invert that to E-G#-C, which makes it sound like E-G#-B#, the true augmented V chord. Of course that's splitting theoretical hairs - :rolleyes: - and makes no difference in practice, but sometimes enharmonics aid understanding (at least I find they do).

IMO, in fact, augmented chords resolve better to major tonics, perhaps because the #5 really is a #5, and not a b6 (as it is on the inverted III+ chord in minor). So C+ leads very nicely to F - as does E+ to A major, and G#+ to C# (Db) major.

But of course (if we disregard enharmonics :)) all the aug chords are the same 3 notes. So - again - an aug triad is a pivot chord which can modulate between 3 different keys, a major 3rd apart.

IOW, there are only four different aug triads, each with 3 possible names. (The same applies to augmented scales, although there is disagreement about what the "augmented" scale actually is. The symmetrical one - of which there are just 4 varieties to match the chords' ambiguity - is 1-#2-3-5-#5-7.)

 

I said above "less so" when we add a 7th - but not "not".;) Adding a b7 to an aug triad invokes (potentially) the wholetone scale: the 4-note chord being 4 out of the 6 notes of a wholetone scale. We can go further and add a 9th, leaving only one scale note out of play (the #4/b5).

Wholetone chords are even more versatile than aug triads or dim7s. They will go any of six ways. It can be harder to hear and accept this, but it does work - although it may depend on how you voice the 9#5 (or 9b5) chord.

So A9#5 can resolve to D, E, F#, Ab, Bb or C - major or minor in each case, but best to major, IMO. IOW, "A9#5" is also: B9#5(#11, no 3rd!); C#7#5(#11); rootless Eb9#5(#11); F(#5#9#11, no 7!); and G9b5. (Phew...) You can see that which notes of the wholetone scale you include can make a difference (it's best for an altered dom7 to have a 3 and b7 at least). But the scale itself is certainly 6-way adaptable.

 

In this sense, there are only TWO wholetone chords, just as there are only two wholetone scales. Each one works 6 ways.

 

 

* I recently heard a great example of a jazz musician exploiting the diminished scale in a dim7-style symmetrical 3-fret move - but not using the standard dim7 shape. Check out the end of the bridge, at 1:08:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xf3rAXoYjA

Here's the tab:

 

-4--7--10-13-16-|(17)--------------------------

-5--8--11-14-17-|(17)---------------------------

-4--7--10-13-16-|(17)---------------------------

-3--6--9--12-15-|(14)------------------------

-----------------|----------------------------

-----------------|----------------------------

 

Note the shape: it starts out as a rootless G13b9 voicing (the bass is playing G and it's in key of C major), but is simply moved up 3 frets at a time, so includes different combinations of notes from the G HW dim scale as it goes. You get the whole 8-note scale in the end.

 

(BTW, his 4-note close-voicings on the other chords are also well worth exploring - some fiendish stretches in there...)

  • Members
Posted

Those pesky augmented chords show up everywhere. Kinda like roaches.

Cminmaj7 = Ebaug chord + C bass note

C9#11 = Bbaug chord + C7 chord

 

If you build a triad on the 3rd degree of a C melodic minor scale, you get Eb augmented chord.

If you build a triad on the 3rd degree of a C harmonic minor scale, you get Eb augmented chord.

 

It's a commie plot.

  • Members
Posted

To answer one of your other questions...

 

No, chords progressions written strictly in the Harmonic Minor scale are not very common. The reason being is the scales function again is to resolve to the tonic, or in a chord progression resolving to the Im chord. If you just hang out in Harmonic Minor (like a chord progression created with chords derived from the HM scale) it never goes where it's meant to.

 

For knowledge reason, and because the HM scale has 7 notes, many guitarist apply their diatonic learnings of the major scale to the HM scale. Yes, it is a great practice in using what you know, and it's a challenge for some as to what to call the chords (or even the Modes if you chop it into derived scales too). But in the end it doesn't get you a whole lot by itself musically as the progressions you will create can sound forced, and there is really no resolution within the scale itself...remember, the scale has a dominant function that's pretty useless without it's partner, its partner being resolution.

 

But, the time spent flushing out the chords and scales within the scale it not a waste of time. Even though it's not going to give you great chords progressions itself it will give you more insight in how to exploit the dominant sound when used over a V7 chord in a V7-Im move.

  • Members
Posted

Those pesky augmented chords show up everywhere. Kinda like roaches.

Cminmaj7 = Ebaug chord + C bass note

C9#11 = Bbaug chord + C7 chord


If you build a triad on the 3rd degree of a C melodic minor scale, you get Eb augmented chord.

If you build a triad on the 3rd degree of a C harmonic minor scale, you get Eb augmented chord.


It's a commie plot.

 

lin_guitar.jpg

 

....."Okay Joe, we broadcast tomorrow. We will poison their minds with our stern, Russian anti-western-decadence chords. Is that spliff still going?"

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...