Members vintagevibes Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 I'm trying to get better at reading numbers (ii V I etc...) My understanding of minor keys has always been that the 6 chord of the relative major key becomes the 1 of the minor which means that the... 2 chord becomes the 7 3 chord becomes the 1 4 chord becomes the 2 5 chord becomes the 3 6 chord becomes the 4 7 chord becomes the 5 So.. when I open Band-in-a-Box and pull up Autumn Leaves (in Em) it starts with Am7 - D9 - Gmaj7 which would be... ivm7 - vii9 - IIIMaj7 (in Em) (or iim7 - V9 - IMaj7 in G) Right? But if I switch to number display mode in BnB it shows ivm7 - bVII9 - bIIIMaJ7. I don't understand the flat 7 and flat 3. It's almost as if the 2nd 2 chords are in the key of G since the 7 and 3 would be flatted for minor. But if that is the case then it seems the ivm7 should be a iim7. I would expect the bVII9 and bIIIMaJ7 to NOT be flatted since they don't need to be in a minor key. I hope this makes sense. Any help would be appreciated!
Members c+t in b Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 technically thats all wrong. amin7 is a related ii-7 to D9 which is a V7/bIII.(Five of three; secondary dominant of flat three) but since amin7 is also ivmin7 in the key it is a dual function chord. but for your logic, the vii in a key involves the leading tone. this occurs in minor mode and specifically in melodic minor and harmonic minor. bVII is built a half step below that and is typically a major or a dominant chord. Gmajor is a bIII because it occurs on a minor third in relation to the root. in Major, the iii chord is a major third from the root. look at it this way from a chromatic perspective of some of the most common harmonies in music i-, bII Major, ii minor, bIII Major, iii minor, IVMajor, #iv diminished, V dominant, bVII Major, vi minor, bVII Major, vii diminished
Members jonfinn Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 Hah! I didn't BnB could use the number system. I just type the chords in. The numbers relate to the major scale. If you're doing the numbers in the key of E, it'd be ivm7 (Am7), bvii7 (D7), bIIImaj7 (Gmaj7) the flats mean "in relation to E major". Does that make sense yet?
Members vintagevibes Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Posted January 5, 2012 Hah! I didn't BnB could use the number system. I just type the chords in. The numbers relate to the major scale. If you're doing the numbers in the key of E, it'd be ivm7 (Am7), bvii7 (D7), bIIImaj7 (Gmaj7) the flats mean "in relation to E major". Does that make sense yet? If the chords relate to the Major scale (G) then an Em7 should be a vim7 right? If I said we are in the key of Em and asked you to play a viim7 chord what would you play?
Members c+t in b Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 in the key of e minor, the vii chord is diminished, not minor.(vii chord is also diminished in major) viidim in e minor would be d# diminished
Members jonfinn Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 If the chords relate to the Major scale (G) then an Em7 should be a vim7 right? If I said we are in the key of Em and asked you to play a viim7 chord what would you play? I would probably guess and play Dm7 because the Em key would tell me that it's D natural. However it's more common to use the term bVIIm7 to indicate Dm7 in the key of Em. I get what your saying. Hard to understand at first. The numbers system (the one I'm most familiar) doesn't adhere fully to the European "figured bass" convention.
Members vintagevibes Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Posted January 5, 2012 What???????????????? In minor the ii is diminished and the vi is minor. There is no d# in the key of e minor.
Members vintagevibes Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Posted January 5, 2012 I would probably guess and play Dm7 because the Em key would tell me that it's D natural. However it's more common to use the term bVIIm7 to indicate Dm7 in the key of Em. I get what your saying. Hard to understand at first. The numbers system (the one I'm most familiar) doesn't adhere fully to the European "figured bass" convention. So if I'm reading a chart in a minor key I should always expect the iii, vi and vii of that key to be written as flat iii, vi or vii?
Members polishpaul Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 Here's a handy link: http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chords-key-e-minor.html The roll-around of chord types is the same as for G major, but starting on E.
Members vintagevibes Posted January 5, 2012 Author Members Posted January 5, 2012 First thanks for the handy link, polishpaul. When I look at e minor at that sight it shows exactly what I would expect: The iii, vi and vii are not shown as flat but apparently some charts show them as flat. Are there two accepted ways to notate this?
Members polishpaul Posted January 5, 2012 Members Posted January 5, 2012 First thanks for the handy link, polishpaul. When I look at e minor at that sight it shows exactly what I would expect: The iii, vi and vii are not shown as flat but apparently some charts show them as flat. Are there two accepted ways to notate this? Jon Finn wrote this earlier: "If you're doing the numbers in the key of E, it'd be ivm7 (Am7), bvii7 (D7), bIIImaj7 (Gmaj7) the flats mean "in relation to E major". Does that make sense yet?" In E major the G is sharp....in E minor it is G natural - a flat 3, compared to the major's G#. And so on. Having checked out the handy link, does this clarify things for you? Personally, I'd go for the way it's presented on that site - for example III, and not bIII, treating the minor key individually rather than associating it with the major. Of course, you might be confronted with each at different times....but by then you'll know what's going on. Here's the handy link again, but to the home page - it's a good quick-reference site for lots of things theory: http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk
Members c+t in b Posted January 6, 2012 Members Posted January 6, 2012 What???????????????? In minor the ii is diminished and the vi is minor. There is no d# in the key of e minor. ugh. there is a difference between writing and playing in a minor key vs. the natural minor scale(aeolian mode). minor key harmony encompasses everything from the natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales. in e minor the harmony would be: e minor, f# dim, g major, a minor, b minor, c major, d major, e minor or i-, ii dim, bIII Maj, iv-, v-, bVI Major, bVII Major in e melodic minor the harmony would be: e minor, f# minor, g aug, a major, b major, c# dim, d# dim or i-, ii min, bIII Aug, IV Major, V Major, vi dim, vii dim in e harmonic minor the harmony would be: e minor, f# dim, G aug, a minor, b major, c major, d# dim or i-, ii dim, bIII Aug, iv minor, V Major, bVI major, vii dim in minor key, you have all of these options. the most common harmonies are based on the roots of the harmonic minor scale and a combination of each scales harmonies: E minor, F# dim, G Major, A minor, B Major, C Major, D# Dim or i-, ii dim, bIII Major, iv minor, V Major, bVI Major, vii dim
Members vintagevibes Posted January 6, 2012 Author Members Posted January 6, 2012 Jon Finn wrote this earlier:Having checked out the handy link, does this clarify things for you? Personally, I'd go for the way it's presented on that site - for example III, and not bIII, treating the minor key individually rather than associating it with the major. Of course, you might be confronted with each at different times....but by then you'll know what's going on.Here's the handy link again, but to the home page - it's a good quick-reference site for lots of things theory:http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk Yes this clears it up quite nicely. I prefer to think of it the way that site shows it also but it's good to know the other way I might come across it. The only thing that still doesn't make sense is that if you are thinking about Em in terms of a it's major scale G ... why wouldn't you call the Em chord a vi instead of a i ?
Members c+t in b Posted January 6, 2012 Members Posted January 6, 2012 because E is the tonic (center of the piece) not G. Since it is the center it is viewed as i or I you have to shift your way of thinking about this. just because G Major and E Minor share the same notes, that doesn't mean that they are necessarily the same thing. They are just related. Minor is manipulated differently from Major, and you would write a piece around E minor differently than you would around G Major. Also, all music isn't strictly related to only the diatonic scales. All of the 12 chromatic notes can exist in a typical 7 note Major or Minor Key. You simply need to know how to use them correctly. If you are seriously interested in this, i would recommend getting a basic Harmony textbook or taking a theory course. It will clear all of this up for you and then some.
Members Tricky Posted January 6, 2012 Members Posted January 6, 2012 If you are seriously interested in this, i would recommend getting a basic Harmony textbook or taking a theory course. It will clear all of this up for you and then some. I am - would you recommend any particular textbook along those lines? cheers.
Members vintagevibes Posted January 6, 2012 Author Members Posted January 6, 2012 Thanks for your replies c+t in b. I'm familiar with the various forms of minor. My question was about chart writing/reading conventions. polishpaul cleared it up for me. My first reply to you was probably a misunderstanding. I was talking strictly about natural minor and when you added your statement it through me for a loop. Now it's obvious what you were referring too. I'm pretty good with theory in general but I'm new to jazz charts and conventions. Anyway thanks for the response.
Members Tricky Posted January 9, 2012 Members Posted January 9, 2012 I am - would you recommend any particular textbook along those lines? cheers. BUMP - c+t in b ?
Members vintagevibes Posted January 9, 2012 Author Members Posted January 9, 2012 These books are very good: http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Departments/Composing-and-Film-Scoring/Applied-Professional-Harmony.aspx
Members c+t in b Posted January 10, 2012 Members Posted January 10, 2012 I am - would you recommend any particular textbook along those lines? cheers. there are hundreds to choose from, but i would recommend diving into a classical based college textbook such as tonal harmony by kostka or elementary harmony by ottman. these types of books tend to a have a lot of drills to force the elementary concepts into your everyday thinking. once you have the first few chapters down, you can continue witht he book or find another text that is geared towards basic changes etc.
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