How important is it to learn the real theory to become a better player versus ...

[BXN95]

My 2 cents on this topic doesn't really compare to that of some of the pro players that have commented on this thread; however, i will say that the application of theory to my playing has had a huge impact on me. So much more really "makes sense" now, and it just motivates me to want to learn more. I only wish i had this kind of thirst for knowledge of theory when i was younger.....but living in the now, im sure enjoying the hell out of playing and studying the instrument. TGIF to all...... JD

[Tricky]

 

My 2 cents on this topic doesn't really compare to that of some of the pro players that have commented on this thread; however, i will say that the application of theory to my playing has had a huge impact on me. So much more really "makes sense" now, and it just motivates me to want to learn more. I only wish i had this kind of thirst for knowledge of theory when i was younger.....but living in the now, im sure enjoying the hell out of playing and studying the instrument. TGIF to all...... JD

 

 

+1

[mosiddiqi]

I think you guys are doing good things with the map analogy. It's an excellent analogy, I think. 5 different players (explorers) with a map in their hands will do 5 different things with it. One will look it over, to see what is in the landscape ahead, then pocket it and walk off exploring to find the mountain they saw marked on the map. Another will get captivated with trying to figure out how the map matches where he is standing right now. Another will carefully plot a route and refer to the map continuously as they travel. Another will chuck the map in their pocket and know that it's there fore emergencies. The last will tear it up and say "maps, who needs them". GaJ

 

I like to just have a compass handy. I don't want the whole map.

[polishpaul]

I think we should make a distinction between "theory" and "theory" .

 

By that I mean between the basic stuff which takes a short time to learn, and the more weighty stuff which a lot of leading players use to help them push the boundaries.

 

Basic theory:

 

# The major scale and how to modify it to get major, minor, dominant and diminished scales, and how to harmonize it to get the chords of any given key.

 

# Triad stacking, which is a simple development in understanding of the above - a minor chord, for example, is a major third stacked on a minor third. A seventh chord has a minor third on top of that.

 

* to * = minor third

" to " = major third

 

Em7, then, is:

 

D.........*

 

B......." *

 

G....* "

 

E....*

 

 

# Study of the circles of fifths and fourths.

 

 

That gives a player a basic map - how to get across town and find the sweet shop.

 

 

Advanced theory is stuff like tritone substitution, modes, altered scales and the like - a map of the sweet factory where they experiment with all the different flavours. Nice to know, of course, but the basic theory stuff gives a player plenty to be going on with and could be enough that many players ever need to know.

 

 

Just my thruppence - learning theory is not an 'all or nothing' affair. Same thing with reading standard notation - one doesn't have to be a proficient speed reader to be able to get some benefit from it.

[polishpaul]

I like to just have a compass handy. I don't want the whole map.

 

I'm happy with just my quadrant and the stars !

[mosiddiqi]

I'm happy with just my quadrant and the stars !

 

..my insistence on a compass is based on living in England and being unable to see the Sun. Or the stars in London come to think of it..what will all the pollution

[3shiftgtr]

How bout this one:

 

The no theory knowin' player:

 

Is in his early 20's and looks cool when he plays and has a good ear and writes some good stuff and has a killer lead singer and goes in magazines and says "I don't know what I'm doin', I just do it." and plays to big audiences and gets laid a lot. Also working on a drug habit.

 

The theory knowin player:

 

Has a wife, kids and a mini van. Learned theory after his first divorce, on the weekends when he didn't have the kids. Now he's the old guy in the cover band (but {censored}IN SMOKES!) while he'd really rather be playing jazz......

[GreenAsJade]

Great thread

[GreenAsJade]

Jon Finn said:

 

 

For me, the reason why this debate goes on and on: -Once you know about theory, it's hard to imagine NOT knowing it. -If you don't know it, it's hard to imagine knowing it. Can you remember what it was like to not be able to read?

 

 

On this topic, I totally recommend

 

The Arrival

 

 

You don't need to be able to read, to read this book. I will buy your copy off you if you buy it then don't like it.

 

Cheers,

 

GaJ

[electrotar]

How bout this one: The no theory knowin' player: Is in his early 20's and looks cool when he plays and has a good ear and writes some good stuff and has a killer lead singer and goes in magazines and says "I don't know what I'm doin', I just do it." and plays to big audiences and gets laid a lot. Also working on a drug habit. The theory knowin player: Has a wife, kids and a mini van. Learned theory after his first divorce, on the weekends when he didn't have the kids. Now he's the old guy in the cover band (but {censored}IN SMOKES!) while he'd really rather be playing jazz......

 

 

guy 1 sounds better choice tbh

[3shiftgtr]

guy 1 sounds better choice tbh

 

 

Have at it, breaux.

 

But one of 2 things will happen:

 

1) You'll make a bunch of money and you'll rationalize your lack of knowledge. And when your time is over, you'll have to decide whether to play small venues with people you hate for folks lost in nostalgia, or quit playing and manage your money.

 

2) You'll resist theory and hang on to the dream and hammer it out with other folks who "don't know what they are doing but just do it" until you eventually become a 35 year old dude with a mini van and kids any way. And you'll still be playing like you did when you were 18. And then you'll probably quit. Then when the kids get older, you'll miss it and form a dad band cover band. And it'll suck. But you'll be able to afford really good equipment.

[electrotar]

I only picked up a guitar cause I wanted to learn an oasis song lol..I have far exceeded the level I ever ''planned'' to be.

Only reason I keep progressing and seek to learn more is I realised.

1. Im a bit off an introvert/loner who likes to study

2. I got really into music/guitar the more I played/learned

3. I have a 'bad habit'' of wanting to be the best at everything I do

4. Im always trying to understand how things work and at a deeper level.


So yeh I learned that 3 chord oasis song...and then some..and it just dont stop.........

Though I never play live, I dont play in a band, i dont sing and I dont get groupies and those things sound more fun than learning theory,...in theory xd!

[jonfinn]

 

I only picked up a guitar cause I wanted to learn an oasis song lol..I have far exceeded the level I ever ''planned'' to be. Only reason I keep progressing and seek to learn more is I realised. 1. Im a bit off an introvert/loner who likes to study 2. I got really into music/guitar the more I played/learned 3. I have a 'bad habit'' of wanting to be the best at everything I do 4. Im always trying to understand how things work and at a deeper level. So yeh I learned that 3 chord oasis song...and then some..and it just dont stop......... Though I never play live, I dont play in a band, i dont sing and I dont get groupies and those things sound more fun than learning theory,...in theory xd!

 

 

I hope that occasionally you're able to see how lucky you are that you have the time and resources to pursue such things without worry over things like food/shelter/safety. If you've got that kind of time on your hands, it usually means that someone is doing something to allow it.

 

If that's true, it's also likely that at some point, those provisions will end.

[jonfinn]

 

Then when the kids get older, you'll miss it and form a dad band cover band. And it'll suck. But you'll be able to afford really good equipment.

 

 

Thanks! I just sprayed my morning coffee all over the screen! I love the term "Dad Band"

[jeremy_green]

 

Thanks! I just sprayed my morning coffee all over the screen! I love the term "Dad Band"

 

 

I had a similar reaction! Out of the park 3shift!

[electrotar]

I hope that occasionally you're able to see how lucky you are that you have the time and resources to pursue such things without worry over things like food/shelter/safety. If you've got that kind of time on your hands, it usually means that someone is doing something to allow it. If that's true, it's also likely that at some point, those provisions will end.

 

 

i was/am young I study at uni and live with my mum......I dont go to parties. I dont have gfs. I dont go dating. I dont socialise. I dont go out much at all.....My life is how I make it...Off course I could chose to spend my free time out my house etc....I made my free time. I study for degree, go to gym, eat 6 meals per day (bodybuilding diet), play football, play video games, watch dvds and still make time for guitar.

 

In summers I work full time job and still have free time from 5pm-12am...7 hours per day.

 

 

Most people have free time like that. I guess if you socialise or have gf or date after work you have less free time. My free time=alone time.

 

Remember Im also agoraphobic so never leave my house unless essential/necessary.

[jonfinn]

 

Remember Im also agoraphobic so never leave my house unless essential/necessary.

 

I can relate. I went through a similar thing when I was young. Part of it was a fear of flying. For me, the cure was realizing that if I always gave in to the fear, that the fear would ultimately win.

 

My point (having walked a similar path) is that once you're on the other side (and you WILL get there....), you'll be grateful for the journey.

[electrotar]

I can relate. I went through a similar thing when I was young. Part of it was a fear of flying. For me, the cure was realizing that if I always gave in to the fear, that the fear would ultimately win. My point (having walked a similar path) is that once you're on the other side (and you WILL get there....), you'll be grateful for the journey.

 

 

I agree. And tbh Im not fully agoraphobic at all nor as much as I once was.

 

However, Im a introvert and prefer to do solitude actitivites and spent time alone preferably in comfort off the house...Guitar is suited for my lifestyle. As is video games and reading etc..

 

If I were like the other young guys who are always out and about at pubs and parties or drinking etc..etc..I would not learn guitar at all or have time for it.

[JonR]

I agree. And tbh Im not fully agoraphobic at all nor as much as I once was. However, Im a introvert and prefer to do solitude actitivites and spent time alone preferably in comfort off the house...Guitar is suited for my lifestyle. As is video games and reading etc..

You should try and find some others like yourself to jam with. I wasn't unlike you when a teenager. Not exactly agoraphobic, but shy and introverted, didn't have many friends, and no gf. But the friends I did have (at school) were in a band, and asked me to join; not because I was any good (you're probably better now than I was then), but because it was like a little gang we had, and they just needed someone else.

While I spent a fair amount of my spare time alone practising (mostly learning good songs and writing bad ones ), I learned all the most important stuff playing with those guys: not just practising together, but gigging.

Music is a social art. That's what it's for: for bringing people together, for giving them (and yourselves) a good time.

Remember there must be dozens of guys just like you, sitting in their bedrooms working on guitar, too shy (or not interested) to go out to parties, get drunk, etc. I wouldn't suggest you try and join some existing band - far too scary! - but try to look for other individuals at your level to jam with. As well as having a lot of fun, you'll learn a hell of a lot from each other.

[c+t in b]

Here is a thread from the effects forum, that can show you what happens when you have a half-hearted study of theory

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2873330-Fretlight-guitars-or-light-makers-to-show-you-key-scales-on-guitar

[Virgman]

To be a huge pop star/guitarist you only need to know a few chords in a few keys and be able to sing in key ( or use auto-tune).

 

Being good looking helps. If you are not good looking wear a cool hat or cover yourself with tattoos

 

No theory needed.

[jeremy_green]

 

To be a huge pop star/guitarist you only need to know a few chords in a few keys and be able to sing in key ( or use auto-tune). Being good looking helps. If you are not good looking wear a cool hat or cover yourself with tattoos No theory needed.

 

 

Other than to come up with your hypothesis of course

[Virgman]

 

To be a huge pop star/guitarist you only need to know a few chords in a few keys and be able to sing in key ( or use auto-tune). Being good looking helps. If you are not good looking wear a cool hat or cover yourself with tattoos No theory needed.

 

 

Hey, if Eddie Van Halen, Hendrix and Taylor Swift can do it...

 

I'm just sayin' is all.

[JonR]

To be a huge pop star/guitarist you only need to know a few chords in a few keys and be able to sing in key ( or use auto-tune). Being good looking helps. If you are not good looking wear a cool hat or cover yourself with tattoos No theory needed.

You also need luck, supreme confidence, and good management.

But you're right: theory is no help to a pop singer; or at least insignificant compared to those other things.

 

When it comes to guitar playing, we're back to what exacty do we mean by "theory"? I dunno about Taylor Swift (how much guitar playing, composition and/or improvisation does she do?) but EVH and Hendrix knew tons of theory. It was just all in their heads, learned by ear (though I suspect they also knew a few more academic terms than we like to think).

 

I've said it before, but the academic terminology (labels for the sounds) is only of use if you ever want to talk to other musicians about music (imagine that, huh? ). But a conceptual understanding of the sounds - an internalization of the grammar - is crucial, whatever labelling system you use for yourself.

The theory is in all our heads already. We couldn't appreciate music at all if we didn't already understand its grammar, its systems, on a subconscious level. The musician's problem is technical: being able to make the right sounds on an instrument. We know by ear when we get it wrong, we don't need a book to tell us that. We only need to be told how to tune, and where to put our fingers, to help us avoid those wrong notes.

But theory begins with the names. With labels like "Bb", or "Am7". There's a whole spectrum of usefulness or necessity, beginning with the names for notes or chord shapes. It's not a question of "theory or no theory", but of how many labels and concepts are useful at whatever stage we're at, and in whatever musical situation we find ourselves.

[electrotar]

also do you think its better to learn classical music and study it by ear to become better with ears quicker?

cause off course classical music is pure music not lyrics or effects etc...its the basis off music right.