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Why is I IV V so popular??


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Posted

I know the cadence is strongest from dominant chord to the tonic- I think is because the Dom chord has the Key's leading tone as it 7th (usually high note and so again lead tone by other definition, too).

 

But why does IV - V sound great ?? or V - IV???

 

In fact interplay between the tonic as in I V IV V I or I IV V IV V I all sound great...

 

another classic adding vi as in:

 

I vi IV V I or I vi IV V IV I sound great..... so why does it work?

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Posted

Why something "works" in music is always a tricky question to answer, and it really has nothing to do with theory.

Theory begins from the observation that certain things in music DO work, and it just seeks to lay out and label what those things are (the "common practices" that musicians tend to go for). "Why" things sound good in the first place is down to a mysterious mix of familiarity (cultural acclimatisation), physics (the harmonic series), and individual psychology.

 

One thing you can say about I-IV-V is that between them they contain all 7 notes of the major scale of I. Plus, major chords sound nice and positive (unlike those wishy-washy minors, which - between them - also contain all 7 notes). So any combination of those 3 majors sounds strong and sturdy. You can harmonise any melody composed of those 7 notes with just those 3 chords - and countless composers do just that. It's quite simply "harmony 101". (Classical harmony text books always start off with plenty of exercises using just I IV and V triads - it's essential for any harmony student to understand all the ins and outs of how they work, before looking at ii, iii, vi, or adding extensions. So there's a real historical tradition behind it too, dating back centuries. It's not much of an exaggeration to say I-IV-V is the foundation of all western music, at least over the last 300-400 years.)

 

As for adding vi to the mix, that's the next most useful chord, adding a subtle extra colour, and (of course) a whole load more permutations. It naturally hints at the relative minor key, as if opening up that aural possibility without actually going there.

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Posted

Interesting songwriting lesson, on how a 12-bar blues progression (itself a variant on I IV V) was turned into a more interesting one for this song:

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Posted

tonic>subdominant->dominant->tonic is the basic formula for tonal music. the progression doesn't necessarily sound thrilling but the melodic possibilities from one key are immense

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Posted

 

Why something "works" in music is always a tricky question to answer, and it really has nothing to do with theory.

Theory begins from the observation that certain things in music DO work, and it just seeks to lay out and label what those things are (the "common practices" that musicians tend to go for). "Why" things sound good in the first place is down to a mysterious mix of familiarity (cultural acclimatisation), physics (the harmonic series), and individual psychology.


One thing you can say about I-IV-V is that between them they contain all 7 notes of the major scale of I. Plus, major chords sound nice and positive (unlike those wishy-washy minors, which - between them - also contain all 7 notes). So any combination of those 3 majors sounds strong and sturdy. You can harmonise any melody composed of those 7 notes with just those 3 chords - and countless composers do just that. It's quite simply "harmony 101". (Classical harmony text books always start off with plenty of exercises using just I IV and V triads - it's essential for any harmony student to understand all the ins and outs of how they work, before looking at ii, iii, vi, or adding extensions. So there's a real historical tradition behind it too, dating back centuries. It's not much of an exaggeration to say I-IV-V is the foundation of all western music, at least over the last 300-400 years.)


As for adding vi to the mix, that's the next most useful chord, adding a subtle extra colour, and (of course) a whole load more permutations. It naturally hints at the relative minor key, as if opening up that aural possibility without actually going there.

 

 

That is an awesome post ^

 

One thing I don't see mentioned enough and you did, thank you, is...

 

"...a mysterious mix of familiarity (cultural acclimatisation), physics (the harmonic series), and individual psychology."

 

I think a lot of people, people with a grasp of theory even, don't understand how the physics of the harmonic series plays into harmony. Or really, the other way around. As if a I IV V were somehow arbitrary.

 

Anyway, your whole post was insightful and well thought out. Thanks.

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Posted

 

That is an awesome post ^


One thing I don't see mentioned enough and you did, thank you, is...


"...
a mysterious mix of familiarity (cultural acclimatisation),
physics (the harmonic series
), and individual psychology
."


I think a lot of people, people with a grasp of theory even, don't understand how the physics of the harmonic series plays into harmony. Or really, the other way around. As if a I IV V were somehow arbitrary.

The harmonic series explains sensations of consonance, to some degree, but it's worth remembering that our harmonic system (triads based on I IV V of a major scale) is a unique European invention, dating from only a few hundred years ago. It distorts the natural physics (ie "tempers" the scale) in order for the whole artificial system to work (and leads to a corresponding poverty of nuance in melody and timbre).

Most other cultures - and European culture in the middle ages and earlier - have no interest in harmony (as least not as we understand it) - preferring sophistication in the direction of melody, rhythm or timbre - so harmony can be seen as a bizarre blip in the world history of music.

Of course, those other cultures also diverge from the harmonic series to various degrees for their own purposes - melodic ones generally, or because they actually prefer what we would call "dissonance" or "noise".

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Posted

The harmonic series explains sensations of consonance, to some degree, but it's worth remembering that our harmonic system (triads based on I IV V of a major scale) is a unique European invention, dating from only a few hundred years ago. It distorts the natural physics (ie "tempers" the scale) in order for the whole artificial system to work (and leads to a corresponding poverty of nuance in melody and timbre).

Most other cultures - and European culture in the middle ages and earlier - have no interest in harmony (as least not as we understand it) - preferring sophistication in the direction of melody, rhythm or timbre - so harmony can be seen as a bizarre blip in the world history of music.

Of course, those other cultures also diverge from the harmonic series to various degrees for their own purposes - melodic ones generally, or because they actually prefer what we would call "dissonance" or "noise".

 

 

Of course. But an octave, a 5th, this is nature. What we choose to do with it is man made. But what we construct is based on a physical truth. The bagpipes drone. That didn't fall from the sky. It is a man made phenomnon, but it is based on the dissonance then the return to the root 5th interval. Which is based in nature. The Scots did their own thing with that, and Howlin' Wolf did his.

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Of course. But an octave, a 5th, this is nature. What we choose to do with it is man made. But what we construct is based on a physical truth. The bagpipes drone. That didn't fall from the sky. It is a man made phenomnon, but it is based on the dissonance then the return to the root 5th interval. Which is based in nature.

Very true. The perfect 5th is a crucial governing interval. It's the drone of raga, as well as Scots bagpipes.

 

But even that is tempered in the western scale. Our tuned 5th is 2 cents flat of a truly (naturally) "perfect" 5th. 2 cents is neither here nor there for most us, but piano tuners need to listen for it.

 

IOW, the way in which we meddle with nature (pulling and pushing 12 semitones so they're all 100 cents apart) is in order to serve our system of 12-key harmony (24 if you include minors), so we can freely modulate without having to retune our instruments.

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Posted

Very true. The perfect 5th is a crucial governing interval. It's the drone of raga, as well as Scots bagpipes.


But even that is tempered in the western scale. Our tuned 5th is 2 cents flat of a truly (naturally) "perfect" 5th. 2 cents is neither here nor there for most us, but piano tuners need to listen for it.


IOW, the way in which
we
meddle with nature (pulling and pushing 12 semitones so they're all 100 cents apart) is in order to serve our system of 12-key harmony (24 if you include minors), so we can freely modulate without having to retune our instruments.

 

 

But an octave is true. If the 5th needs to be adjusted give or take 2 cents, the gist of the story remains. So, equal temperament does not negate physics. We still are playing off of that octave and that 5th, regardless of whether or not we've adjusted the intervals within so our system will play nice. Our system. But derived from physical principles.

 

So, your "bear in mind" comments are well founded, unless you let that distract from the fact that an octave and a 5th are science. They work for reasons based is physical reality. A I IV V has a reason.

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Posted

 

I IV V has a reason.

As scale degrees based on nature, yes (back to Pythagoras and probably further). As triadic chords, the "reason" is less to do with nature and more to do with constructing a particular kind of harmony.

The 1-3-5 of a major triad DOES match the lower order harmonics of the root- that has to explain the reason major triads are considered "primary". But for them to work together - and be transposable - the notes have to be tempered. The 5th is 2 cents flat and the 3rd a more problematic 14 cents sharp.

 

Just to repeat - I'm not denying the foundational role of the harmonic series. I'm just more interested in how and why it gets messed around with (in different ways in different cultures) to make various types of "music".

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Posted
In fact, even the octave is suspect. It's bizarre but true that research has shown that
people prefer
the sound of an octave tuned slightly wide (top note sharp) than one which is mathematically correct. It sounds more "in tune" to them, even though technically it's more out of tune.



First off, we agree. :)

But saying "people prefer" their octaves tuned wide might be a little misleading. One reason folks might gravitate toward the wide octave is the same reason a synth programmer detunes his second oscillator. Or Magritte levitates men in bowler hats with umbrellas and Dali drips clocks. It is the bending of nature that makes a statement. The anomaly allows us to see it.

To hear it.

Nature is beautiful. Man's perception of nature is fascinating and inaccurate. The willful bending of it is inevitable. Like a piper playing with dissonance and then resolving to the 5th with his drone. An octave, a 5th, that's nature. It is our job as artists to manipulate that nature. To say something with and about it. And that can only come from dissonance then consonance. Conflict and resolution.

All of great literature is based on conflict and it varying resolution. And so is music...

Of course people prefer their octaves tuned wide. Otherwise, they wouldn't even know it was there.

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Of course people prefer their octaves tuned wide. Otherwise, they wouldn't even know it was there.

Yes; except that one might think (hypothetically) that the octave represents the ultimate resolution, an ideal of perfection to strive for. The answer to conflict, not something containing conflict.

The interesting thing is that what one might think denoted "clash", doesn't. Maybe a little like those "blue notes", that are "out of tune" (in comparison with harmonic context anyway), but just sound so "right".

As if there is a rightness being perceived that is nothing to do with crude math.

 

I've been trying to find an article describing the original research, but all I've found so far is this:

http://home.earthlink.net/~douglaspage/id86.html

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Posted

you should read, "this is your brain on music" by daniel levitin. amazing book, discusses this very topic among many others that are very fascinating.

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you should read, "this is your brain on music" by daniel levitin. amazing book, discusses this very topic among many others that are very fascinating.

I have, and I agree.

 

(I was just going to remark on his comment in the article I linked above, about perception of colour. "There is no red in the world." ;))

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I think it's in the back of your mind before you pick up an instrument from hearing it's many variations in popular music in the formative years then you stumble onto it fairly easily. It's a good starting point and good frame for many tunes. Then there's the cycle of fifths thing...

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