Question about scales...

[Music Is All]

Alright, so I've been reading up in the idea of CAGED, and it seems fine and all, but the problem with this is, that it's limited for standard tuning. How else can I practice scales so I essentially master the scale, what is another way to practice scales that will accomplish that?

[Jed]

 

The concept of the CAGED method is built on the way the same chord (major triad) changes shape as you move up or down the neck. CAGED takes this visual cue of chord shapes to anchor various major scale shapes along the fretboard.

 

While this is helpful for many people who may be visually oriented, it masks the actual mechanism that makes all this possible. Specifically notes and how one note relates to another, along one string and across various combinations of strings.

 

I was aware of the CAGED phenomena long before I knew the fretboard and hence long before I came to really understand the CAGED method. There are many ways to learn about the fretboard. CAGED is one way but it's not really about scales per se rather it's about the shapes of scales and how those shapes relate to chord shapes.

 

In my case, I wanted to understand the underlying structure of scales and how they all worked and related to each other.  Once I understood about scales (and had the sounds in my ears), I used that knowledge to learn the fretboard.  For example, you can take something like 1-string scale patterns to learn about how the various notes of a scale relate to each other intervallicly. This is a powerful way to learn the scales, their sounds and a bunch of notes along some string. As you study additional strings you'll start to see the structure of standard or a non-standard tuning.  

 

If you can combine that knowledge with 2-octave arpeggios to learn to see how one chord is projected onto and across various parts of the fretboard - you'll start to see many different ways to play simple chords. From simple chords arpeggios (say a major triad for example), you can add the 2nd/9th & 6th/13th to extend that 2-octave triad arpeggios into full major pentatonic scales.  Done this way you'll see there are many more ways to play a pentatonic scale than just the five common shapes.

 

Adding the 4th/11th and 7th to the major pentatonic scales above - and you'll see the full 7-note major scale. Again with more potential fingerings than are commonly discussed.  Learning scales this way is a lot of work but with that hard work comes significant pontential for learning about music, scales, chords and the fretboard.

 

Each chord type has a specific collection of extensions that produce familiar sounds. Minor triads like 4ths/11ths and b7ths. Major triads like 2nds/9ths and 6ths/13ths and sometimes the b7th but other times it needs to be a major 7th.  As you work with each chord type, you'll learn about the common extensions and how they sound.  Once you get all that in your ears, you may find yourself wanting to play less common extensions.

 

There is a very well defined structure to most popular music, there are simple ways to produce common sounds.  Once you learn about those, the thrill of understanding music starts to grow.  After that it's all down hill.  You'll be hooked on how powerful music theory can be.

 

Cheers and good luck,  remember we're here whenever you have a question.

 

Jed

[JonR]

---

Music Is All wrote:

Alright, so I've been reading up in the idea of CAGED, and it seems fine and all, but the problem with this is, that it's limited for standard tuning. How else can I practice scales so I essentially master the scale, what is another way to practice scales that will accomplish that?

---

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. If you mean CAGED is limited "to" standard tuning, so is every other scale system on guitar. In a different tuning, the notes are in different places, so whatever system you use to learn scales - patterns or notes - it depends on the specific tuning you're using.

Sorry if I'm missing your point (or indeed if Jed's answer is perfect, as usual ).

[Music Is All]

Jed, amazing answer haha, buthow do I go about doing that? Learning scales that way? I want to see them the way you're describing. So you're saying I need to memorize all the chords and their extensions in the form of arpeggios, which will then link to the notes of specific scales (for the sake of upholding your example, the pentatonic scale) and this will be a better way to master scales? Or should I learn single string scales, the CAGED system, and arpeggios, combine them, just to enforce ultimate visualization?

Sorry for the questions, it's just everywhere on the internet everyone is like "CAGED is horrible, learn scales a different way", but then they never describe other ways to learn scales... What in your eyes is the best way to learn them? I'm definitely incorporating that arpeggio idea into my practice, so thanks for that. Also, what are your thoughts on sequencing to improve my fret hand mobility?

[Jed]

 

Knowing about scales means knowing the notes of the scales - their names, intervallic relationships, sounds, etc. I could not imagine knowing them all over the fretboard before I knew the scales in terms of names, intervals and sounds.  So that's how I learned them.  One scale at a time in one key, then another key and another - until I had learned that scale (the major scale) in every key.

 

Once you know the major scale (in multiple keys at least, in all keys preferrably), then learning the fretboard in terms of what you know about scales is relatively easy. Of course, we don't play scales to make music - so if the real goal is to be able to play music you have to look past scales and come to grips with chords and how one chord moves and behaves / relates to another chord. Fortunately chords and how they function is a simple as the notes in the major scale and how they function.  Knowing the scales (as notes and intervals) provides the vocabulary for understanding triads and later 7th chords (and all other chords).  All these thigns relate to the major scale in a very simple and predictable way once you start digging in.  Unfortunately, it's not something that I can explain in a post.  Think about it - hundreds of books have been written on the subject.  But the good news is all you have to do is start looking with a critical eyes towrds relationships and intervallic patterns - and the structure will become obvious in short order.

 

My advice is to start with the major scale in every key. Once you know the major scale in every key off the instrument, learning them on the instrument is the easy part.  If you don't know them off the instrument, no matter how hard you try, you'll never understand them in terms of the instrument. Remember the instrument, any instrument, is only a vehicle to express the music within.  If there is no understanding within (either consciously in terms of music theory or unconsiously in terms of monster ears along with amazing ear hand coordination) then what is there to express through the instrument?

 

Once you think you know the major scale, learn the triads diatonic to that scale (again in lot's and lot's of keys!). Again with music theory, there's at least as much to learn off-instrument as on-instrument.  I've developed various techniques that allow me to practice music and the guitar specifically during times when I have no access to an instrument. For example, I often have to travel long distances for work in my car or on a plane. Well of course I cannot practice with an actual guitar during those times but that doesn't mean I cannot practice my guitar.

 

Regarding fret-hand mobility:

 

  I heard a great player once say that if you know where the notes are / what they will sound like / how they relate to the chords of the music - your fingers will have no difficulty playing them. "If you can hear it, really hear it - then you can play it." If your fret hand feels "jammed up", it may not be your hands at all, but rather your mind that is not clear about the music.

 

check you personal messages.  Cheers,

 

Jed

[BenTunessence]

Hi Music Is All!

I feel a little unclear on your question also, but I hope this is helpful...

I learned scales (and the fretboard) in terms of modes.  I first learned a basic Major Scale (or Ionian mode) shape where the middle finger is on the root on the 6th string, and the shape stays within four frets.

I then learned how to alter notes within that shape to create the other modes.

If the Major Scale is represented with numbers for scale degrees (1 2 3 4 5 6 7), you just flat or sharp notes from your major scale shape to get the shape for another mode.

For example, Dorian mode is (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7).  The 3rd and 7th are flatted.  So you can take your Major Scale shape, lower the 3rd and 7th notes by a fret whenever they show up, and you've got a Dorian Mode shape.

If your Major Scale shape is on G, play your new Dorian mode shape on the 2nd degree, A in this case, on the 6th string.  Now you've got G Major (or G Ionian) and A Dorian.  The G Major shape starts with the middle finger on the 3rd fret of the 6th string, and the A Dorian shape starts with the index finger on the 5th fret of the 6th string.

Since G Ionian and A Dorian contain the same notes, you could also think of this as two different G Major shapes.  Depends on how you use them.

Anyway, you can take this approach to build all seven mode shapes with roots along the 6th string.  You'll have seven scale shapes that give you the same seven notes along the whole fretboard.

Here's the spelling for those seven modes:

Ionian (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)

Dorian (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7)

Phrygian (1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)

Lydian (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7)

Mixolydian (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7)

Aeolian (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7)

Locrian (1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7)

 

Hope this helps!