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Lotsa changes around here!


BmoreTele

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This is now a moderated forum. Even though the master list of forums doesn't list him, it looks like Phil O'Keefe is the new sheriff. To those of you who asked for a moderator at various times in the past few years - he's your boy.

 

Too bad I never heard of him before he took office, so the point of selecting one of our own to run this place seems to have been passed over.

 

Now we are told that the "unified site-wide rules" are coming and will be posted soon. So we can be just like the Amp Forum. :rolleyes:

 

No more daily Spam threads - but that's OK cause there's no way to judge if the person you're dealing with is a long time user since the post count is subject to random decimation.

 

More thread deletions, more bannings, selective thread edits - welcome to the world of moderation.

 

The new owners have an investment to protect here and if that means the oddballs and flakes have to go, so be it!

 

Too bad so many years of accumulated knowledge and experience is going with them.

 

I wonder what it is that makes people want to have decisions made for them. What kind of self loathing or distrust is it that makes folks trust powerful and rigid strangers?

 

I used to think musicians were somehow different, that they reveled in being outsiders and valued their freeoms. I guess I forgot about all those accordion taechers out there.

 

http://www.accordionman.net/ldyspain.mid

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Originally posted by BmoreTele

This is now a moderated forum. Even though the master list of forums doesn't list him, it looks like Phil O'Keefe is the new sheriff. To those of you who asked for a moderator at various times in the past few years - he's your boy.


You might want to check out this thread - that subject is addressed in it.


HC as a whole has rules and moderators / administrators - it always has, and everyone sees (and has to agree to) the rules when they sign up / register to use the site. That's nothing new.


As far as the MF purchase, it really doesn't come into this in the way a lot of people think. Instead of considering HC's intentions as "becoming an online extension of MF", if you think of it as a "musician's hangout / virtual magazine / musician's Internet resource", you'll be closer to the mark.


Too bad I never heard of him before he took office, so the point of selecting one of our own to run this place seems to have been passed over.


I'm a producer and engineer... no one ever hears about us!
:cry::D

As far as "picking your own moderator", that
might
be a possibility. I'm NOT "your moderator", nor am I trying to become "your moderator". But I am an admin here at HC, and "the way things have always worked" is that the admins keep an eye on all the "unmoderated" forums, and address anything that we see that is in violation of the HC site rules. Even though I'm one of the "new mods", and have only been around since July, that's all really nothing new...


Now we are told that the "unified site-wide rules" are coming and will be posted soon. So we can be just like the Amp Forum.


We recognise this forum is unique and has its own flavor, and we're not trying to squash that. The "unified site rules" is simply going to attempt to make the overall HC site rules more clear to everyone, and to post them in a spot where everyone can view them at any time, and not just "when they first sign up". Don't worry - we're not trying to "change everything" here.


No more daily Spam threads - but that's OK cause there's no way to judge if the person you're dealing with is a long time user since the post count is subject to random decimation.


That was an unfortunate incident, and we're trying to rectify that.
:(
Please see Craig Anderton's comments (in a sticky at the top of the threads list) for more on that subject.


As far as the "daily spam threads", the HC policy is "no spam". That is also nothing new, and that policy predates the MF purchase of HC. It's been enforced a bit more than it sometimes was in the past, but I'm not "the enemy" here - I'm one of the folks who argued IN FAVOR of coming up with a way that you people could have a place to buy / sell / swap gear. And that's cool with "the management", but we can't allow individual members to start a variety of spam threads and for those threads to 'bash it out for the title of THE daily spam thread". It's too confusing and too many things can get out of hand.


And since the single, ongoing spam thread is just too big and cumbersome, AND since you apparently don't want me (or any of the mods / admins) around any more than we have to be,
;)
I think a weekly spam thread may be the solution. Feel free to voice your opinion and suggestions in the thread I linked to above.


More thread deletions, more bannings, selective thread edits - welcome to the world of moderation.


Well, if it's in violation of the HC site rules, it's going to be addressed by
someone
. Again, that's really nothing new.


The new owners have an investment to protect here and if that means the oddballs and flakes have to go, so be it!


Close... the new owners, in their efforts to make this the best "musician's hangout / virtual magazine / musician's Internet resource" on the Internet, are going to enforce the site rules so that this place is as pleasant as possible for as many of you as possible. If that means trolls, haters, outside spammers and other folks who would disrupt YOUR COMMUNITY have to be repremanded and / or tossed, then so be it.
:(
But that's done with the intention of making this place better for all of you, not worse.
:)

Too bad so many years of accumulated knowledge and experience is going with them.


We respect the community and all of your contributions, and we have no desire to mess that up or throw it out.


I wonder what it is that makes people want to have decisions made for them. What kind of self loathing or distrust is it that makes folks trust powerful and rigid strangers?


Anarchy rules?
;)

If you read that thread I linked to, I think / hope it will become obvious that I'm not trying to become your assigned moderator, that I'm asking for a FORUM consensus about a subject that is important to this community AND that can work within the parameters of the existing HC site rules, and that I'm just trying to help facilitate that for you fine folks... nothing more.


I used to think musicians were somehow different, that they reveled in being outsiders and valued their freeoms. I guess I forgot about all those accordion taechers out there.


No one is trying to take away anyone's "freedoms". OTOH, this is a privately owned site, and the owners have a right to set the rules and enforce them - site wide. That's not a violation of your first amendment freedoms - we're not Congress, and you can still start your own forum elsewhere, or go to another forum or even express your POV right here as you always have - as long as you do so within the parameters of the site rules.
:)

Maybe instead of trying to ask for everyone's opinions about how the spam thread should work, I should just leave everything "as is"... or just pull down the spam thread completely, and let the other mods and admins delete everything spam related, as per HC's longstanding policy...
;)

I'm just trying to help YOU. As a community, come up with something that the majority agrees with that can be implemented within the parameters of the HC site rules (and a previous poll seems to indicate that the majority want a weekly spam thread - a daily one probably isn't going to work due to the problems and logistical reasons I mentioned in that other thread), and I'll put it in place and help facilitate it for you.


That sounds OH SO heavy handed to me...
;)

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Originally posted by wacopacco

good post phil. i think the main problem isn't the change, but it's that people generally, dont like change.
:(



And we want to change things as little as possible. Actually, most of the changes we have in store for HC are more along the lines of additions than they are changes.

Thanks for your comments. :wave:

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When I was younger, I had a pony tail. My father was not happy with it and kept asking me when I was planning on getting a haircut. I eventually did cut my hair. A few years later, my father's boss asked him when HE was going to get a hair cut. I loved it.

I accept that change is part of life. See my sig. "panta rhei" is ancient Greek from Heraclitus - it means "everything flows." Change is constant.

I'm not happy with managed change from folks whose track record includes "accidentally" erasing post counts, mismanaging their own stickied Spam thread, irrational bannings and thread edits, and who appeal for polls to reveal the "will of the people" so that they can "help us."

Push polls are designed to get the answers that the questioner wants. They offer no alternative views and accept no substitutions or variations. All they offer is a way for the poll maker to justify their actions.

What exactly was "broken" on this forum that needed to be "fixed?" A few trolls were violating existing rules. Like it has always been on every public and private forum I have ever visited. It gave some people something to get angry about. And some people expanded their "Ignore" lists.

The trolls are still here. A vast storehouse of information in old threads was deleted. The ancient bumped Spam threads weren't singled out and deleted. Instead ALL Spam threads were banned. Except for the one Giant Spam Thread from Daddy. And then Daddy got busy and forgot to clean up the Giant Spam Thread, which by the way is still a Giant Spam Thread with no end in sight.

In order to lead a community, you should first join it. Hang out, watch the patterns, listen to the rhythms, learn to trust the forum as an organism.

Statements like "we can't allow individual members to start a variety of spam threads and for those threads to 'bash it out for the title of THE daily spam thread". It's too confusing and too many things can get out of hand. " are a sign that you haven't done your homework. Those competing daily spam threads were a part of the ebb and flow of this community. It was part of the fun, part of the recognition of the absurdity of this thing we call GAS.

Where was the confusion? What exactly got out of hand?

The personality quirks of this place have existed for a long time, going through changes as the members changed. Roll with it.

Are there really less complaints now than before the management decided to "enforce the site rules so that this place is as pleasant as possible for as many of you as possible?"

Enough. This is a forum for people with too much money to spend on stuff that they don't need. Like me. It ain't that important.

Change? BFD.

:wave:

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i'm pretty sure we always had the option to appoint a moderator of our own chosing in the past, if we had chosen to follow that route.

as for the vast store of lost knowledge, well we could only ever access the most recent few weeks of posts anyway, even before the recent cull.

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Just a couple of comments BmoreTele.

I had not heard of Phil either until recently. I think it's very positive to have someone like him around. He's very knowledgeable and helpful.

I don't know whether we're getting close to being like the Amp Forum. I do know that the quality of the FX forum has steadily declined for the last couple of years.

Regarding post count, I still don't see the relationship between post count and trustworthiness. If you want to know whether a person is a long time user you can look at the registered date. Most of the people who post here regularly already 'know' each other. I do like the idea of having multiple spam threads. When I have something to sell I prefer to create my own thread about it. And even though I typically post my spam here first 99% of the time I sell it elsewhere.

Regarding thread deletions, bannings, and edits, I think those need to be evaluated case by case. I do not agree with some of the cases I remember, and still think it is a good idea to have moderators. Moderation would not be necessary if everyone here was responsible and mature. That is not the case. Some people forget that this forum can be viewed by young people, and some of the things they see/read may not be appropriate. If my nephews had a question about guitar effects I would NOT want them to do a search here. I would send them to another forum.

Regarding years of accumulated knowledge and experience, they have been lost many times in the past. Many (or most) of the regular posters from 1999-2002 are no longer frequent posters here, if they ever post at all. I suggested many times in the past to have a FAQ section to save the knowledge and make the board a bit more efficient regarding information, but it was never done. Remember the almost-daily "what is the best overdrive?" threads? And what is a compressor, what is a phaser, tubes vs. solid state, analog vs. digital, sample rates,etc.? That's information and knowledge that is constantly being lost, and this is from way before new ownership took over.

I don't know about people making decisions for others, or about self loathing, distrust and rigid strangers :confused:

I do value my freedom and love music. Being a musician does not make anyone special, though. Many musicians are a$$holes, whether on a forum or in person :D I don't think that has anything to do with the current situation. There have always been rules in the forum. People were banned in the past. Even when moderation was not official, we were moderated to a degree.
Years ago self-moderation came in the form of ignoring trolls, avoiding too many OT discussions that could lead to heated arguments (e.g., religion, politics, etc.), and just answering people's questions. Then the forum started to grow and people actually asked for a moderator. And many highly knowledgeable people ended up leaving the forum. Again, this happened years ago. There are many forums that have moderators, and the moderators pretty much do nothing, because forum users follow the forum's rules and common courtesy rules.

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I don't really see any problems with this forum other than the deleted posts and the stickied spam thread.

The deleted posts was a mistake - they owned up to it and said they would fix the problem if possible. Not really a big deal - I personally think you should earn trust by getting other people to know you rather than going by your post count. I can think of a number of people who constantly post drivel, thus having a high post count but a low trust level.

The stickied spam thread was something that was agreed upon by a poll of HCEF members, although I recall it was supposed to last only a week before it was refreshed. I suggested having a stickied thread that got renewed on a daily basis, and based on the comments I've seen, I think most people would like that the best - it could be automated and a thread that lasted only a day wouldn't contain outdated information or be too hard to wade through.

Other than that though, HCEF remains the best effects forum on the 'net, other wise we wouldn't stay here, despite the grumblings. :)

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I don't mind the change so much as the "mistakes" made in the change.

While not the ONLY variable, I do like dealing with established members (high post counts) VS. newbies.

That being said, I took pride in the quality AND quantity of my posts and did bring them into the equation when commencing a deal here. Now that's gone...overnite....gone.

This here makes NO sense to me:

Member CAN NOTdelete their posts, BUT
moderators CAN delete/modify a member's post, BUT
moderators CAN NOT delete their own posts? Which, in turn, if it was the FIRST POST, would delete a thread!

The SPAM thread is stupidity at work, the fact that a moderator "can't" change this, when he fact he started it, makes me doubt the trustworthiness of the moderators as a whole.

I would NOT want to moderate this place...NO THANK YOU!

Phil, good luck, fix a few things that have happened SINCE you came along, and all will run fine. :)

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Member CAN NOTdelete their posts,


That was changed due to an OVERWHELMING amount of user complaints and requests. People got tired of putting effort into a thread, only to have another poster delete the whole thing by deleting their thread starting post. You can still edit your own posts (even "thread starters") and delete posts within individual threads just as long as they were not the FIRST post in the thread.

BUT
moderators CAN delete/modify a member's post,


Yup...

BUT
moderators CAN NOT delete their own posts?


Sure we can. :)

Which, in turn, if it was the FIRST POST, would delete a thread!

That's a software limitation. No matter WHO deletes the first post in a thread, the whole thread gets deleted. It doesn't matter if a member or a mod does it - again, that's a software limitation that's currently beyond our control. :(

The SPAM thread is stupidity at work, the fact that a moderator "can't" change this, when he fact he started it, makes me doubt the trustworthiness of the moderators as a whole.

And if I just took the requests of some forum members (received via emails and PM's) and "changed it" without getting everyone's POV and input, I'd be accused of being a "heavy handed mod". Again, it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you dont'".

I can, and will, change the layout of the spam thread. We tried the "single, ongoing spam thread" approach (which was cool with HC management - remember, some of them wanted NO spam threads whatsoever), but it's less than ideal. So I'm suggesting we try something different that stays within the rules I have to work under, but will hopefully make things easier on all of you - and I asked for everyone's thoughts and feedback before just "doing it".

Was that really such a bad thing to do on my part? :confused::)
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everyone! it IS the way it is now, yes we can use

our freedom of speech to express ourselves,in

a much better format than you can over at FDP

or the gear page,this is still the best forum around

let's back phil and the mods , new owners, etc to

make it even better. phil, perhaps the changes

would be less difficult, if you were to ask for our

input in terms of our likes and dislikes, just a

suggestion, as we want to respect our home here

but, really your post's here HAVE shown humility,

and earned my respect rather than demanded it.

we are a bouce back family here with the ability

to roll with the punches. we do place a credibility

of a person at times in their post count, and history if you will.if you can't restore the data that

has been apparently lost, then at least try to restore the count somehow, that shouldn't be too

hard to do. long live the fx forum!:thu:

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Phil,

I think there's been a pretty clear consensus:
WEEKLY stickied spam thread

The post count thing, IMO, is water under the bridge, it happened to EVERYONE, so we're all in the same boat.

I don't mind a moderator, I think some people here have no common sense, have little or nothing to add, and whine like 12 year old girls....










but I AM going to therapy ;)

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Sure, people don't like change but the major issue, and I'm sure you've been made aware Phil, is that the effects Forum was one of the most self-sufficient on HC. It was a real community with few trouble makers and many valuable contributors. It's one of the reasons why nay call for moderators have referred to it being 'one of our own'. People who contribute here often don't go to the other forums a great deal and vice versa. To have a mod from 'somewhere else' makes you feel like a foreigner to us, rather than someone making the communtiy better.

Changes to that fracture our community, make it feel less like something we've developed over years and more like 'just a place to hang'. Which I guess it always has been, but it has lost some of its specialness and it'll always draw in new people but what made it worthwhile in the first place may be lost.

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Anyhow, Phil, you seem like a nice guy, and I've enjoyed your studio & recording posts. I don't meet a lot of nice guys in studios. It's weird. But that's another subject, point here is, I don't think anybody's going to lay this at your feet. (Tho why you stickied a link to your own thread about building amplifiers is a bit mysterious. Excitable, I guess.)

---

Bmoretele & I have a common point of view that's very difficult to convey. I'll try, speaking just for myself:

When there's a break in the stucture, a gap in restriction, things happen. Sometimes those things are just as boring as the things that happen in a planned environment, sometimes they're awful, but sometimes they're elegant and (yeah well) beautiful.

---

I'm a long-time player here, had another name before, and as long as I've been here there's been a constant chorus of complaints that the good old days are over and now this place has gone to hell. But this moment, this moderator intervention and associated crap, is the first time I've thought, yeah, the party's over.

It wasn't such a great party, of course. But it was what it was, and never the product of some corporate overseer (or anyone else) trying to steer things. It was very stupid, and very elegant.

---

Consider the difference between an unplanned, unnavigable weirdo city, or even a slum really, and the cold efficency of a development with a 'towne centre.' (Bmoretele must live near America's first really large-scale planned unit development . . . must stay on point . . . )

---

It is all inevitable. The temper of the times demands regulation, consistency, cleanliness, and the negation of all the things that are interesting. {censored} (can I still say {censored}?), "indie rock" is a now a genre of commercial music. I mean, there is no limit -- everything, everything, everything is inverted to the hegemonic purpose.

---

I distrust people, deeply, but not as deeply as I distrust institutions. I love people, but don't love institutions.

---

This is nominally a forum about guitar effects pedals. I could give a {censored}. Or a hoot if required by law.

---

I've made real friends and 2 records that wouldn't have happened without HCFX.

---

Unreal city.

---

Hieronymo's mad againe.

---

Shantih shantih shantih

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Originally posted by fernmeister

i'm pretty sure we always had the option to appoint a moderator of our own chosing in the past, if we had chosen to follow that route.


as for the vast store of lost knowledge, well we could only ever access the most recent few weeks of posts anyway, even before the recent cull.

 

 

Here's the thing, your dialectic is limited.

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Am i the only one that thinks we'd be much better off if all the spam was just in another section..like over at The Gear Page? it seems to work well over there.
I have no problem with SPAM at all.. but it gets really cumbersome to see 10 threads a day. And even one huge thread is kind of obnoxious to go through. If we just separated it into its own section and then subsections based on gear.. then people could post what they wanted and you could choose to either view or not view the spam pages. Just seems a "cleaner" way of dealing with it, i guess. But that's just one man's opinion :)

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