OT: NJ smoking ban this weekend...surprise!

[FLYING V 83]

Seems a lot of bar owners have been planning decks as an alternative to the indoor ban. Some even started building them.

Enter a little paragraph buried in the back of the 77 pages of the law that forbids smoking outside wihin 25 feet of the establishment!

Add to this the cost of all those fresh air systems they were forced to install years ago (which is now just a bunch of costly scrap metal hanging from the ceiling) and you gotta sympathize with them. My local bars are predicting a 50% drop in customers.

Welcome to Screwedville.

[Lefty Geek]

Bars around here lots most of their happy hour customers after the ban. Night crowd was unchanged, but the after work crowd stopped going to bars. The big plus is that more bars started offering drink specials to get customers to come back.

 

I am a non-smoker, but I do not support government trying to interfere with social norms.

[Guest Anonymous]

yeah its going to hurt some bars around here.there is a cigar bar loophole. so ive heard a few places will be opening cigar sections of their buildings.

[percyexpat]

 

Originally posted by Lefty Geek Bars around here lots most of their happy hour customers after the ban. Night crowd was unchanged, but the after work crowd stopped going to bars. The big plus is that more bars started offering drink specials to get customers to come back. I am a non-smoker, but I do not support government trying to interfere with social norms.

 

 

yeah, its a bitch that they banned bear baiting and whatnot too...im a non smoker so im very glad the british government is doing something to ban smoking. smoking is by far the worst drug because it directly affects other people passively. i dont care much if someones snorting a line sat next to me, doesnt affect me. blowing smoke in my face does though.

[Wilbo26]

Hey at least ya'll can still drink in bars. Here in Texas, TABC is going into bars undercover and arresting people that are 'intoxicated' in order to 'prevent drunk driving'.

 

Translation...this is a really great way for us to make more money of drunk people.

 

Smoking ban is annoying, but bars with decks let you smoke so at least those won't go out of business. The dumbest thing is, if there was a market for no smoking bars, THEY WOULD EXIST. I imagine half the people that vote for these bans don't even go to bars.

 

Even when I was a non-smoker, if you don't like being in a smoky bar, don't go to one. I never came home from a night out with breathing problems from second hand smoke. And anyone complaining about a smell on clothes, I would hope you wash your clothes after a night of drinking anyways.

 

And some bars, without all the smoke they places smell like stale beer and vomit. Much better than the smell of a burning cig. Welcome to The Nanny States of America everyone.

[hoerni]

Originally posted by percyexpat yeah, its a bitch that they banned bear baiting and whatnot too...im a non smoker so im very glad the british government is doing something to ban smoking. smoking is by far the worst drug because it directly affects other people passively. i dont care much if someones snorting a line sat next to me, doesnt affect me. blowing smoke in my face does though.

 

 

Hear Hear! I'm looking forward to being able to go bowling too without having to deal with the stench. (in NJ, not GB of course).

 

Just cause something was wrong for so long doesn't mean the government shouldn't make it right. Best thing they've done in a while.

[gethsemane]

 

Originally posted by Wilbo26 Hey at least ya'll can still drink in bars. Here in Texas, TABC is going into bars undercover and arresting people that are 'intoxicated' in order to 'prevent drunk driving'. Translation...this is a really great way for us to make more money of drunk people. Smoking ban is annoying, but bars with decks let you smoke so at least those won't go out of business. The dumbest thing is, if there was a market for no smoking bars, THEY WOULD EXIST. I imagine half the people that vote for these bans don't even go to bars. Even when I was a non-smoker, if you don't like being in a smoky bar, don't go to one. I never came home from a night out with breathing problems from second hand smoke. And anyone complaining about a smell on clothes, I would hope you wash your clothes after a night of drinking anyways. And some bars, without all the smoke they places smell like stale beer and vomit. Much better than the smell of a burning cig. Welcome to The Nanny States of America everyone.

 

 

+1

 

let the establishments decide for themselves. why the {censored} is it the bar's problem if you don't like people around you smoking?

[scottkahn]

Business will not be hurt by 50% -- not even close.

 

I lived in CA when they implemented the first smoking ban in the nation around 8 years ago, and everyone made the same complaints as we're hearing in NJ, but the complaints are a little more loud/agressive here since NJ folks aren't quite as laid back as the folks in CA :-).

 

After a brief period of adjustment, people will get used to it... and personally, as a musician performing in clubs in NY and NJ, I am so thrilled about this! Finally, air in the clubs that doesn't make my clothing reek of cigs. and doesn't deposit dirt and grime in my expensive gear.

 

If someone needs to smoke so bad that it impacts their ability to go out and have fun at a bar or club, they should seriously reexamine their priorities. I still don't understand why so many people still smoke when they know it leads to cancer. Is it THAT much fun that it's worth destroying your own body?

 

Of course laws like this are needed because it protects non-smokers like me from getting cancer from someone else's vice. Now I just have to hope the drunk drivers don't kill me on the way home from the club :-p.

[Klisk]

I'm in NJ. I'm also a nonsmoker, but out of my house hold of 4 people, I'm the ONLY nonsmoker. So... I'm used to second hand smoke, and I don't give a {censored} about the health hazards. I just don't want to smoke because it costs money, hence, I never will. My mom has skipped buying dinner, clothing, etc just so she could buy smokes, so I've never been too fond of the habit.

 

That being said, it is kind of a bummer what they're doing to bars. I mean... You goto bars to {censored} up your health. Who cares about some smoke? There's a lot of places where a ban make sense. A bar is not one of those places, though. It's strange how I'll defend smokers when I'm not one, but some people are just too obsessed on the issue, and people shouldn't have their rights stripped just because some twit thinks inhaling a little smoke will give you cancer. Inhaling smoke every day for years will give you cancer. Not occasionally over your lifespan. Lets face it, if you're spending enough time in a bar to develop cancer from second hand smoke, then you have other problems in your life. The only time I go to bars is when someone invites me, honestly.

 

A 25 feet rule just seems like a spiteful tactic.

 

As much as someone may hate smoking, in my opinion it's selfish to tell someone to stop. If you're that concerned about your health, take yourself out of a situation where you're around it. Don't take the smokers out. Lets face it, nonsmokers are the boring as hell ones anyways. And that's coming from someone who is one of them.

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

Originally posted by Wilbo26 Hey at least ya'll can still drink in bars. Here in Texas, TABC is going into bars undercover and arresting people that are 'intoxicated' in order to 'prevent drunk driving'.

 

 

when i was in austin, the TABC was at the hotel i was staying at. there is a bar in the hotel, so they were accosting people who were drinking there.

[Klisk]

Originally posted by Help!I'maRock! when i was in austin, the TABC was at the hotel i was staying at. there is a bar in the hotel, so they were accosting people who were drinking there.

 

It reminds me of a concert I was at recently.

 

"No drinking/getting drunk at the BAR!"

 

Opposed to the concert I was at recently, where it was like:

 

"DO NOT PUSH. IF YOU PUSH.. THE BAND WILL STOP PLAYING." (Talking to the mosh pit.)

 

Errrrr.

[hoerni]

 

Originally posted by Klisk That being said, it is kind of a bummer what they're doing to bars. I mean... You goto bars to {censored} up your health. Who cares about some smoke? There's a lot of places where a ban make sense. A bar is not one of those places, though. It's strange how I'll defend smokers when I'm not one, but some people are just too obsessed on the issue, and people shouldn't have their rights stripped just because some twit thinks inhaling a little smoke will give you cancer. Inhaling smoke every day for years will give you cancer. Not occasionally over your lifespan. Lets face it, if you're spending enough time in a bar to develop cancer from second hand smoke, then you have other problems in your life. The only time I go to bars is when someone invites me, honestly.

 

 

The issue is not that the law bans smoking in bars; it bans in everywhere indoors. It's great for the small offices with only 3 people that fall under OSHA guidelines or NJ workplace laws. It's also great for restaurants and just about everyone other place you can go to.

 

You don't have right to harm others. Never did. Also as others pointed out, not everyone is there to get drunk. The bar tender needs to earn a living as do the musician's playing. Why should they suffer?

 

A 25 feet rule just seems like a spiteful tactic.

 

 

Nope, it's pretty standard. That's the way it is for most buildings, and I'm pretty sure that's the law for large workplaces. As I recall though, the limit for the workplace law was 25 feet from the main entrance.

[Wilbo26]

 

Originally posted by Help!I'maRock! when i was in austin, the TABC was at the hotel i was staying at. there is a bar in the hotel, so they were accosting people who were drinking there.

 

 

Yup. The fact that they went into hotel bars, where the person drinking is likely to just stumble up to their room and never get in a car, is even more rediculous. But of course, at a hotel, chances are the person doesn't live close enough to Austin to contest the fine in court, so they just plead no contest and mail in a check. CHACHING! TABC just made 200 bucks. Its bull{censored}.

 

They actually said they are going to halt this type of thing, temporarily, because of course TABC is up for a funding review and there have been massive amounts of complaints over this obvious revenue scam. There's an open meeting here on the 17th that I will be attending. I think I'll get drunk before I go, just for kicks.

[Wilbo26]

50% drop in business is most definately bull{censored} methinks. There are just as many annoying assholes out at the bars now than before the ban, except all the smokers are clogging up the sidewalks instead of sitting at the bar.

 

I honestly don't think that second hand smoke is going to kill you unless you are exposed to an incredibly large amount of it in a non-ventilated area for long periods of time.

 

My grandparents both smoked for years, and my mom and her brother are in their 50's now and have absolutely zero health problems related to smoking. My uncle, in fact, had problems with alcohol ruining his liver, but his lungs are just fine. They grew up in a small house with parents that smoked indoors regularly and it didn't hurt them a bit. I'm sure in some cases this may not be true, but to say that drinking in a bar for a few hours out of the week will give you cancer is ridiculous, and I have yet to see a single study that can prove this is the case.

 

Smoking in restaurants, however, is a ban I am 100% behind. Smoking around food is gross, and I always hated people that would smoke at the table when I went out. Banning smoking in a bar that only serves drinks and no food makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Gristlefist]

I am not a smoker, but there's nothing I hate more than SMOKE NAZIS.

 

These cretins are so far up their own *ss that they think they're saving the world by forcing everyone at gunpoint to make the same choice they make. You can't be more NARCISISTIC than that. If you want to buy a bar and make it no smoking, go ahead. That doesn't work? No kidding--PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE YOU, D*CKLESS NAZI P*SSIES. Crawl back up your own *ss and die.

[hbar]

Originally posted by Wilbo26 I honestly don't think that second hand smoke is going to kill you...

Highly scientific. Why didn't anyone bring this up earlier? Those voters sure have egg on their face.

 

 

are we still friends?

[hbar]

 

Originally posted by Wilbo26 50% drop in business is most definately bull{censored} methinks.

For real. So because you can't smoke, you're not going to go to bars? Not likely. The same logic applies both ways.

 

Pre ban: Smokers say if you don't like smoke, go to a smokeless bar. What? You can't find one? Awww...

 

Post ban: Non-Smokers say if you don't like smokeless bars, go find a smoking bar. What? You can't find one? Awww...

[Heckles]

 

Originally posted by scottkahn Business will not be hurt by 50% -- not even close. I lived in CA when they implemented the first smoking ban in the nation around 8 years ago, and everyone made the same complaints as we're hearing in NJ, but the complaints are a little more loud/agressive here since NJ folks aren't quite as laid back as the folks in CA :-). After a brief period of adjustment, people will get used to it... and personally, as a musician performing in clubs in NY and NJ, I am so thrilled about this! Finally, air in the clubs that doesn't make my clothing reek of cigs. and doesn't deposit dirt and grime in my expensive gear. If someone needs to smoke so bad that it impacts their ability to go out and have fun at a bar or club, they should seriously reexamine their priorities. I still don't understand why so many people still smoke when they know it leads to cancer. Is it THAT much fun that it's worth destroying your own body? Of course laws like this are needed because it protects non-smokers like me from getting cancer from someone else's vice. Now I just have to hope the drunk drivers don't kill me on the way home from the club :-p.

 

 

Uh huh...Well, I am in a city that recently (within the last year) banned smoking in all public places. Not only have I heard the same story from most every place (business down 30% - 60%, tips down same or more) but I have witnessed one bar that was playing a prominent role in the local music scene forced to close because of the ban and the ensuing loss of business. I have not spoken with a single employee of a bar who is pleased by the smoking ban. Not one. Furthermore, the reality of the situation is that the places that are affected by the ban most are generally working class establishments, the kind that host live music, while the meat markets on campus and the soulless "cheeseburger in paradise" type places are not hit nearly as hard. Frankly, I find laws like this to be frightening and fascistic. Why does anyone believe that the gov't has a right to tell someone that they cannot smoke on their own property? It is absolutely ridiciulous. "Of course laws like this are needed because it protects non-smokers like me from getting cancer from someone else's vice." You can protect yourself by going to non-smoking establishments and working in non-smoking establishments. That is your right. It should also be the right of a business owner to smoke in his own establishment, just as it is your right to not frequent that establishment if you don't like smoking.

[Alex D]

I for one have looked at the studies and the density of 2nd hand smoke and size to weight (children mainly) are no where near the needed amount (air to smoke ratio or density)of 2nd hand smoke that has been shown (not proven) to cause cancer in adults. There are real questions about children and their lack of lung space though that shouldn't be ignored (smaller lung surface ratio), but we are talking larger humans with larger organs. And time and again these studies show a much greater density of smoke is needed to affect adults in the same way as children (which are by far the most studied group among 2nd smoke studies).

 

What in fact has been shown is that non-smoking adults that have no contact with smokers are a increasing population of people with cancer (10-15% last year had lung cancer with out 2nd or first hand smoke exposure). This would tend to suggest that there is a much larger problem that goes unchecked. Reason givin are the radactive isotope that was release to the world during WWII (wasn't present in bones in the dead prior to bomb being dropped) that wasn't there before, and the other is environmental pollution from industry (industrial revolution pollution).

 

I just got out of a statical anaylisis class that invloved just this idea(and studies), and it is far from conclusive that smoking in bars (ventalated) in any away affects the 2nd hand person. I know this is not what people want to hear, but with a closier look it just isn't so cut and dry.

 

So I feel that smoking should be considered and treated as a pollutant and we should as non-smokers be a people who imbrace that enviromental clean air and water for all if the goal.Not stopping smoking in bars but to stop it everywhere cause it a pollutant, not because I don't like it or "feel" it may give me cancer without having a clear cut study that show what is exactly needed to both avoid and get cancer(hell stress can cause cancer so personal belief is also a cause, and a personal cause at that)

 

But the sad truth is that no one is standing up to ask why lung cancer is growing with out tobacco explosure. But that must be to much work, becasue it is alot easier to pass laws that affect just one group without the the other being affect, kind of facist when it still a legal product to buy and consume.

oh ya and it completely takes responisiblity out of my hands to clean up there own state,city,county or even country and puts it squarly on the shoulders of the people who smoke. So it not my lack of action to clean up environmental cancer concerns, it's those damn smokers who are giving me cancer, ya right

[Heckles]

Originally posted by Gristlefist I am not a smoker, but there's nothing I hate more than SMOKE NAZIS. These cretins are so far up their own *ss that they think they're saving the world by forcing everyone at gunpoint to make the same choice they make. You can't be more NARCISISTIC than that. If you want to buy a bar and make it no smoking, go ahead. That doesn't work? No kidding--PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE YOU, D*CKLESS NAZI P*SSIES. Crawl back up your own *ss and die.

 

YES!!

[MarkSimpson]

I had pretty much stopped going to bars here in DE when the smoking ban went into effect, but my father & his wife still go out.

He said that the places they went to lost some business at first, but it eventually picked back up.

 

As someone that has smoked for years, I'm all for banning smoking indoors in public places. I never smoked in my house, and quit smoking in my car nearly ten years ago. Getting tar & nicotine residue all over surfaces bugged the hell out of me. It stinks and makes everything look dirty.

[percyexpat]

Originally posted by Wilbo26 Hey at least ya'll can still drink in bars. Here in Texas, TABC is going into bars undercover and arresting people that are 'intoxicated' in order to 'prevent drunk driving'. Translation...this is a really great way for us to make more money of drunk people. Smoking ban is annoying, but bars with decks let you smoke so at least those won't go out of business. The dumbest thing is, if there was a market for no smoking bars, THEY WOULD EXIST. I imagine half the people that vote for these bans don't even go to bars. Even when I was a non-smoker, if you don't like being in a smoky bar, don't go to one. I never came home from a night out with breathing problems from second hand smoke. And anyone complaining about a smell on clothes, I would hope you wash your clothes after a night of drinking anyways. And some bars, without all the smoke they places smell like stale beer and vomit. Much better than the smell of a burning cig. Welcome to The Nanny States of America everyone.

 

all this talk of nanny state is rubbish. most people dont smoke and most people dont want to take in second hand smoke. the reason there arent non smoking bars is because people bend to the lowest common denominator. people go to bars in groups, if 2 people in a group of 10 smoke then that causes a problem so people go to a bar that allows smoking because anyone addicted to smoking is bloody unbearable company after an hour without a fix!!

 

hello rare bit of real democracy in america?...and britain...

[gethsemane]

Originally posted by percyexpat all this talk of nanny state is rubbish. most people dont smoke and most people dont want to take in second hand smoke. the reason there arent non smoking bars is because people bend to the lowest common denominator. people go to bars in groups, if 2 people in a group of 10 smoke then that causes a problem so people go to a bar that allows smoking because anyone addicted to smoking is bloody unbearable company after an hour without a fix!! hello rare bit of real democracy in america?...and britain...

 

but just because most people don't like something doesn't mean it should be made illegal. that's the whole point of minority right, which is what makes a democracy a democracy and not a mob.

[gil1]

Right, no one made these people smoke. If people want to smoke, they can do it where it doesn't effect other people. At home.

 

There are plenty of things which people can't do in public places. For good reason.

 

You can shout "fire" in your house, but not in a theater.

 

You can shoot a gun in your yard, but not the mall.

 

Part of being in society is restraining offensive behaviours so they don't screw up other people.

[hoerni]

 

Originally posted by MarkSimpson As someone that has smoked for years, I'm all for banning smoking indoors in public places. I never smoked in my house, and quit smoking in my car nearly ten years ago. Getting tar & nicotine residue all over surfaces bugged the hell out of me. It stinks and makes everything look dirty.

 

 

Right, which means smokers are inflicting property damage on everyone else in the bar (smokers on not).

 

BTW, if anyone really believes that you have the right to smoke, then challenge the law. Rights are granted by the consitution (either state or federal) No law can trump a consitution in our legal system. So you are free to follow suit and challenge the consituionality of the smoking ban.

 

In fact and quick google shows that people have done just that:

 

NYS & NYC Challenge - On 4/9/04 a federal judge ruled the ban constitutional

 

Arizona - Judge dismissed the case

 

Denver Co - they're considering a lawsuit

 

And finally, they are trying it in NJ - stay tuned for this one.

 

Some others are in the system, but I don't think anyone has overturned one of these laws yet.