HELP ---- pc monitor shows African-American!

[varialbender]

But seriously, I heard on the radio today that some teachers are fighting the phrase "that's so gay."

I don't find it offensive, and I don't know any gay people who would. I think a saying like "I got jewed" is a lot more offensive, in which case it means being ripped off, as the jewish stereotype rips people off. This differs from the phrase "that's so gay" (meaning "that sucks", etc...) in that there is no connection to a gay stereotype, and I doubt anyone means "that's so awful, like gays are awful."

 

Anyone actually bother reading that and have an opinion?

I'm not exactly fighting for the right to say it, but I think it's overly pc to try to ban it. I wonder how many actually mean it offensively, and how many take it offensively.

[DIYethic]

Originally posted by varialbender This differs from the phrase "that's so gay" (meaning " that sucks ", etc...) in that there is no connection to a gay stereotype"

 

 

 

cough, cough.

[varialbender]

Heh, I know. I had to change "I doubt anyone means 'that sucks, like gays suck' " to "that's so awful..." so that no one would make that joke, and yet you still manage.
Congrats.

[Esperanto]

I like fags that die from aids

[GuyaGuy]

Originally posted by Esperanto I like fags that die from aids

that sentence just made Marin Timmy cry.

[itstartsstoppin]

I agree that 99.9% of people who say "that is gay" are not trying to make fun of the gay community but i could see how gays would find it offensive because you are subing a negative word ex. stupid, dumb, ect... with a word that refers to their sexual orientation.

[itstartsstoppin]

Originally posted by Esperanto I like fags that die from aids

 

 

wow thats funny, way to go. i bet you feel so big and tough right now.

[NoirAbattoir]

It's not really right. Still, I sometimes do it. It's just about the last prejudice term I have in my vocabulary. I have lived with gay roomates and work very closely with gay coworkers for years. I am totally supportive of gay rights and would never use the term around my gay coworker/friends. In fact, I would feel pretty bad if they saw me use the words. I dont mean it in an offensive way, though. It's just one of those old sayings that has stuck. I suppose if I wanna clean up my conscience I could eliminate it from my vocabulary.

Still, I know there are plenty of gay people who probably wouldn't be offended by it.

[NoirAbattoir]

I will say this, when I use the term it's when I come across something that is a bit flamboyant. For instance, I put a jolly roger pickguard on a Kramer pacer guitar once. That's just {censored}ing gay. I mean butt-pirate gay. So maybe I don't mean it in a "that sucks" kind of way. I'm just noticing I put together a butt-pirate gay guitar. I sold it, but I may put a rising sun pickguard on a red Charvel Model 3 (I lovingly refer to it as the homocaster).

[NoirAbattoir]

Like when the guy from Loverboy wears that red headband? That's pretty gay.

[space cred]

Originally posted by varialbender This differs from the phrase "that's so gay" (meaning "that sucks", etc...) in that there is no connection to a gay stereotype, and I doubt anyone means "that's so awful, like gays are awful."

 

 

sort of, but that's certainly where it came from, and I think that making strides away from past meanings, even if they are for the most part stripped of most homophobia, is important. maybe because in the act of rejecting it, individually and socially, we're showing and teaching ourselves and others (again and again) that being homophobic assholes is generally unacceptable.

 

 

Originally posted by varialbender I'm not exactly fighting for the right to say it, but I think it's overly pc to try to ban it.

 

 

its not about being politically 'correct', but politically aligned.

 

I don't mean this as a stab at you.. but think of where anti-p.c. arguments usually start from... the right, conservatives etc. Sure, the whole 'right wing' isn't anti-p.c., and of course not entirely homophobic, but their feelings towards queerness aren't random associations, but relate to values that come from their social role, either as ruling class or middle america, where the right lives. the whole idea of anti-p.c. cements sets of values where homophobia is not only acceptable, but the norm.

 

of course, there's anti-p.c. (and right wing) sentiments, everywhere, in every walk of life, not only in the ruling class and middle america, but i guess what i'm trying to say is that it benefits them.

 

in that it benefits 'conserving' traditional values it benefits heterosexual dominance, something I think morally one should fight against, gay or straight.

 

its not enough to be simply 'accepting' on an individual basis, although its certainly important and admirable. we've got to recognize, socially, that queerness is joined in a common front against racism, sexism, ( and if you've read this far and haven't figured out my position yet... the right, conservatives, etc.)

 

through rejecting anti-p.c. garbage, we're not just putting them down, we're building ourselves. I think we can all agree that democrats (in the states) have more or less become the finger waggers at the right, not actually doint {censored}-all. this is what the left, liberals, etc. have become, rather than an actual movement.

 

therefore... its not about being politically 'correct', but politically aligned. aligned with those who are kept down by homophobia, racism, sexism, and ultimately... dare I say it... capitalism.

[varialbender]

Wow, what a thoughtful reply.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I know exactly what you mean in saying that anti-pc is beneficial to the right in keeping right values. However, I think this is going too far for now. What I mean, is that there are many avenues to fight gay-bashing and other forms of hate, and this fight is just not as important as other fights. Maybe it's just more accessible than, say, attacking a mainstream religious idea. Still, I think that was one of the least harmful things that went on in high-school, and I went to one of the least hateful schools you can imagine. I went to a french school in an english town, so there were about 16 grads, and a lot of my classes were 3 people (not a lot of people took chem...). Anyway, it was pretty easy going, and I heard a lot worse things than "that's gay", and can imagine that it was much worse at bigger schools. I was subject to some anti-french stuff, but even then, I wouldn't even make the connection if the saying was "that's so froggy", and I don't hurt when the french are publicly seen as cowards, be it in cartoons, or presidential speeches.

By the way, hate seems to be going pretty well for gays lately. It's almost on par with being black, in terms of cultural popularity. There are more and more cool gay tv shows a la will and grace, queer eye, etc... And, of course, this is usually among the youngish demographic, in which case, I'm guessing high schools aren't too bad compared to some older people, set in their ways, grown up on the bible and such. I'm all for teaching tollerance to ensure that kids grow up to be good people, but I don't think banning this phrase will have any effect on this, and I think it's a bit of a stretch when there are bigger fish to fry.

Maybe I'm a bit desensitized, but I think tollerance is also about being able to joke about differences. I don't think this entirely applies to this situation, as I don't think the phrase is a joke or well related to the sexual orientation, but I just thought I'd mention it. It seems sometimes people are too serious about these issues.

PS my best friend is a gay french-canadian asian living in the states. He's the uber minority. I should ask him how he feels about this whole thing. Also, sorry for my incoherent bable.

[endo23]

My gay friends seem to have no problem with the term-- in fact, I regularly throw out such non-p.c. words as "fag" "faggoty" "homo" & etc. both with and around them. Because beyond all the hand-wringing and dire cultural prognostications, my friends have a sense of humor, and most of us understand the importance of context when dealing with language. I got nothing but love for my faggot friends, and they know it.

I do refrain from using the N-bomb, but only because that {censored}'ll get you roughed up. Plus, it's much more fun to say "ninja."

Ninja, what? Ninja please!

[Brian Marshall]

i say 'thats gay' all the time.

In 30 years you'll probalby get a lot of funny looks for saying it.

When i used to work in electrical sales, i did most of my sales over the phone and often out of state, and most were repeat customers.

Every now and then (and i dont want to generalize, but i will anyways) id be on the phone with an electrician that didnt live within 100 miles of an ocean. And they would end up using a term like 'ni**er rigged', to which i would reply, 'you know im black, right?'

Short pause, while they realize what they said.

Just when they would start going off on an explaination, or apology, i would tell them i was kidding. It's funny though what people will say with out thinking about it.

Back when i was just out of highschool i was part of a group of friends that wasnt old enough to go to bars, so we usually sat arround and drank coffee all night. There were a few gay people that we knew, and everyone there said {censored} like 'o my god thats so gay' and they never made a fuss over it. or at least i didnt notice.

[endo23]

By the way, hate seems to be going pretty well for gays lately. It's almost on par with being black, in terms of cultural popularity

 

I would take a moment to divest you of this notion, since you live in a rather liberal area. I often get lulled into submission here in LA, where gay is indeed the new black, but one visit to say, Idaho, and I'm reminded that we've still got a long way to go. Just look at the last election if you need hard evidence. (Wow, that sentence is a gay joke just waiting to happen.) Similarly, while it is "cool" to be black in 2006, this standard only applies if you're a gun-toting, Cristal-popping celebrity. Real, live African-Americans still face serious economic and social challenges in this country. Which is super gay.

 

(Stepping off my soapbox...)

[aeonrevolution]

Saying, "Thats so gay" in the context of meaning something is stupid is still the same as saying anyone who is gay is stupid. You can try talking your way around it all day.

I don't see the point in using gay in a derogatory way anymore. Its just as bad as being a racist.




BUT. When used like in the above examples, like the headband guy, thats different. Thats just poking fun at stereotypes which is done to all kinds of races and ethnicities without harm.

[varialbender]

You're absolutely right endo, there definitely are cases in which it's cool and cases in which it's not. A lot has to do with money and embelishing it helps too. Sure, ghettos are included in the fascination with black culture, but you don't see white kids buying real estate in those areas. The cool stuff is consumerism, same with the gay/metro trend. Reminds me of that metro south park episode. Anyway, you're right, it's not all glam. There are definitely areas that are more tollerant than others. I'd like to see an effort made to reach these areas, rather than get militantly strict on fairly tollerant areas, and pushing rules against speach on what may be some fairly tollerant people.

Don't you wish you could just bitch slap politicians against gay marriage?

[troubbble]

Originally posted by aeonrevolution Saying, "Thats so gay" in the context of meaning something is stupid is still the same as saying anyone who is gay is stupid. You can try talking your way around it all day.

 

 

I think the point is that no matter what my words are saying, they aren't being used as a form of hate.

[aeonrevolution]

So if I were to say "Those niggers have the biggest Jew noses I've ever seen" in a joking manner not meaning any harm, is this okay?

[varialbender]

I don't think there's a stereotype of gays being stupid, and I don't think that there's a link between the two.
How about the word queer? It used to mean strange, and now it means gay. The two are completely separate words. Sure, some people use it as a hateful word, but it's also used in non-hateful ways. Queer eye for the straight guy isn't implying hate in its title. If you call anyone anything, it can be the title they chose for themselves, you can still say it with hate in your voice, and it'll be taken as such, but you shouldn't abolish that word because of it. For some reason I'm thinking of "Neuman" on Seinfeld. Anyway, my point being that words and their intention can be separate, and in this case, I believe that you should really think about what is intended, rather than immediately assume it's gay-bashing.

On another note, can this all be a fear of racism/gay-bashing/etc...? I, for one, get nervous around minorities because I'm always afraid of being the racist white man. I'm the furthest from that, but I feel like the idea that everything is racist is being shoved down my throat, and now so is this gay thing. No jokes. You can be the most tollerant person in the world, and you always have to worry about what you say, cause someone might find it offensive, or rather, someone not offended might be afraid that it is and thus deem it offensive. Anyone ever feel that way?

[troubbble]

Originally posted by aeonrevolution So if I were to say "Those niggers have the biggest Jew noses I've ever seen" in a joking manner not meaning any harm, is this okay?

 

 

My honest answer is yes. Many people wouldn't agree with me. I think it's important that if you wanted to use that statement that you do it towards someone who understands that you don't mean it hatefully. Personally, if you made a statement like that which was equally offensive towards what I am, I would try not to be offended on the basis that you don't hate me. I could see where other people would be offended.

 

It's a fine line, but I don't think words are as important as the message that the person is attempting to communicate.

[varialbender]

Originally posted by aeonrevolution So if I were to say "Those niggers have the biggest Jew noses I've ever seen" in a joking manner not meaning any harm, is this okay?

 

 

I wouldn't say it, but if you said it, and I knew you didn't mean it in a hateful way, sure, though there's a lot more surrounding the N-bomb just because of its history, whereas the G is less of a bomb than it is a sparkler.

[GuyaGuy]

this thread is full of flaming!

[troubbble]

Originally posted by varialbender On another note, can this all be a fear of racism/gay-bashing/etc...? I, for one, get nervous around minorities because I'm always afraid of being the racist white man. I'm the furthest from that, but I feel like the idea that everything is racist is being shoved down my throat, and now so is this gay thing. No jokes. You can be the most tollerant person in the world, and you always have to worry about what you say, cause someone might find it offensive, or rather, someone not offended might be afraid that it is and thus deem it offensive. Anyone ever feel that way?

 

 

I'm always afraid that when I talk to a black person they look at me as someone who looks down on them or something, and that in turn probably makes me look like I really do look down on them. Why is it that the first thing that pops into my head when I see a black person is to not be racist? I feel really bad that I can't just be cool.

 

I think I'm getting better now that I don't live in middle-class, white suburbia anymore.

[varialbender]

You know the joke "I don't see people in colour. People tell me I'm white."? I definitely see people in colour, and I can admit that this is most prominent with black people. There are thousands of asians around here, and obviously thousands of whites, but black remains a large minority, and yet I don't think that's the reason why they still stand out to me. I think I see them as the archetype of racial discrimination and suffering, and all these years of "stop racism" campains has made me fear my behavior around black people. I hate knowing that a little bell goes off in my brain every time. I guess we're tought that we're bad people. I think I do something similar to attractive women, though a little different. I acknowledge, and do my best to avoid looking at them again, as I must have been trained to fear being shallow and lusting.

These campains are attacking the wrong people